Sonic 4 episode 1 is PART OF Sonic 4 and My thoughts on Ep1

[Facehugger]

To be fair BL seems to mostly getting agitated with the "format" of discussion some people are throwing his way - rather than the game itself.

[Sega DogTagz]

I'm aware of that, I was specifically talking about the debate itself and its effect.

OK then.

Not exactly. The quality of a game is self-evident, and wether it is worth purchasing is dependent on quality.

That line is blurred a bit when your dealing with discount tittles and DLC / Downloadable games. No matter how good or bad it is, if you go in with expectations that are just not gonna be there (such as say - Genesis physics) then your gonna be disappointed. If you go in looking for a fun little game worth the money that is only Sonic 4 in name, then you might be in luck.

If you want a stark quality assessment, I'll say the soundtrack is hit or miss, and the gameplay features the same problems that we've seen for the last few years in Rush. Aside from that its not buggy or unplayable and its 2D sonic... and it brings back the spindash which is cool.

Low replay value does not bode well for the game, to be frank.

It has replay value - but only if your into that kind of thing. You can play through the story and collect the Chaos Emeralds in a short time - the real length of the gameplay is personal achievement and leaderboards. If you haven't bothered to speedrun / funrun any of the classics or Unleahsed (or any Sonic game in the past) you certianly won't feel obligated to do so here.

What the hell are you talking about?

The Untouchable trophy / achievement. Its a nice thing to have on your Sonic resume.

(I also believe I was the first to accomplish it)

Edited June 17, 2011 by Sega DogTagz

[Facehugger]

That line is blurred a bit when your dealing with discount tittles and DLC / Downloadable games. No matter how good or bad it is, if you go in with expectations that are just not gonna be there (such as say - Genesis physics) then your gonna be disappointed.

As I said; I simply want a quality overview of the game, as it were. My expectations towards the game are irrelevant as to the products actual quality.

It has replay value - but only if your into that kind of thing. You can play through the story and collect the Chaos Emeralds in a short time - the real length of the gameplay is personal achievement and leaderboards. If you haven't bothered to speedrun / funrun any of the classics or Unleahsed (or any Sonic game in the past) you certianly won't feel obligated to do so here.

Then perhaps I shall give this game a miss, and simply wait for Generations to arrive.

The Untouchable trophy / achievement. Its a nice thing to have on your Sonic resume.

(I also believe I was the first to accomplish it on the HD consoles)

Oh, I see.

[TheDanimator]

@Blacklighting

Okay, please READ what I have to say this time because it really seems like you are not fully reading what I am posting.

Okay first of all, YES, YOU DID say it sucks factually.

You said...

There's nothing wrong or unfair about saying ep1 sucks, because ep1 does objectively suck, and it sets a very poor first impression for the rest of the Sonic 4 series

Then I said...

This is the core of our content, you say Episode 1 sucking is a fact

then you said...

No I don't. I never did. I presented arguments explaining various ways in which the game does things that a good game shouldn't. Arguments that, again, went completely unnoticed over your ridiculous "opinion" crusade

YES YOU DID see above^

Now as I said before, everywhere I have gone says objectively is used to state FACTS.

So unless I am mistaking on the definition of objectively, you DID say that.

Not in itself, but it doesn't help that you literally ignore just about every piece of supporting argument I've posted relevant to the discussion and make absolutely no effort to refute it. It's only an opinion to you because you keep fucking trying to refute it completely out of context, which isn't even remotely fair after all the effort I've put into explaining why I see things that way.

I didnt respond to much of your opinion on the game because you were treating it as a fact. There would be no point in debating with you about the game if you see many of your standpoints as FACT when they are NOT. Typically I dont get anywhere debating with people that claim things

to be fact or objective, when they are actually opinion and subjective.

This is where I started to have issue with what you were saying...

T-man Said...

Objectively? The only thing that "objectively" sucks about it is the physics, and even then it's subjective how much it bothers the player, or if it even bothers the player at all. Just saying...

Then you said...

If you don't have a problem with the game arbitarily removing all of your midair momentum right in the middle of a precarious jump and sending you straight into a death pit, there is something seriously wrong with you. There is no subjectivity about it. That is something a platforming game should not do, especially one in a series where it's perfectly normal to expect momentum to carry you the rest of the way. It's much worse when you look at it in context, where they delayed the game over the explicit reasoning that they'd fix this shit and not much, if anything, actually got fixed.

Even in the above statement you fail to see the difference between objective and subjective and fact vs opinion.

If you don't have a problem with the game arbitarily removing all of your midair momentum right in the middle of a precarious jump and sending you straight into a death pit, there is something seriously wrong with you.

Although I AGREE that the physics should not do this, I completely disagree and find it completely RUDE that you are saying something is wrong with someone if it doesn't bother them.

Also, T-man stated HE DOES have a problem with the physics... read this again...carefully...

The only thing that "objectively" sucks about it is the physics, and even then it's subjective how much it bothers the player,

Then you acted as if he was saying there was nothing wrong with the game by saying this later on...

To be honest, saying "nothing is wrong with this game because I still personally enjoy it" isn't really that much better

HE had JUST STATED that the physics OBJECTIVELY SUCK, and you IGNORED HIM and put words into his mouth.

I didnt want to argue with someone who didnt seem to understand the difference between objective and subjective and fact an opinion. So I decided to give you a lesson on fact and opinion instead, then you ASSUMED i was ignoring your arguments.

When you learn the difference between objective and subjective, and fact vs opinion I will be more than happy to debate with you using my opinions on the game.

You said...

To find whether one's views have good, or indeed any, objective merit? Is there something wrong with hearing people from both sides of the fence? How petty do you actually think I am?

Okay now listen to my reasoning here.

You said earlier that you think Sonic 4 episode 1 is OBJECTIVELY bad. Therefor you were saying it was a FACT it was bad.

By saying episode 1 sucks Objectively you are saying "it sucks and that is a fact."

Based off of my understanding you cannot change a fact into an opinion.

So why would you care to hear the apposing sides views if it is SET IN STONE to you that it sucks?

You said this...

How's about saying why you think Sonic 4 doesn't suck, or at least address the various criticisms I've already given it throughout this thread without immediately dismissing them as completely invalid for no other reason than the fact you simply don't agree with them?

I NEVER DID THAT, NEVER. If im wrong, show me proof.

I was just saying much of the stuff you were saying was opinion not fact.

I never said those things you said were INVALID because I do not agree with them.

You say im wrong then SHOW ME where I said that.

politely, to give a counterpoint explaining why you don't agree with anything I've said. And on any other day I would be strangling you to death with your own severed spine

Im frustrated with you as well, but to me this just further proves YOU are the one with the heated/flam-y issues.

For the sake of this thread I am not going to talk about this anymore until you learn the difference between fact and opinion and objectively and subjectively.

When you do, get back to me and I will gladly give you my input on Episode 1.

By the way, on another note I want everyone on here to know that it was OCD ish of me to say I dislike when people call it Sonic 4, instead of episode 1. Its not a big deal at all. Its obvious what they are talking about. I personally try to avoid saying Sonic 4 due to the fact the game is not fully released yet, but as I said its not a big deal, its just my OCD speaking. Haha.

And lastly, sorry, Ill take a lesson on someone on how to use quotes better.

Edited June 17, 2011 by TheDanimator

[Preston]

No one is going to win this argument. We can agree that you can have fun with the game, but it's still an unpolished game. There are technical faults with the game that are objectively technical faults. You can tolerate them and have some fun with the game, but in comparison to the previous 2D Sonic games or even 2D platformers in general, these technical faults are glaring and need to be addressed now.

Look, I'll just take out the root beers so we can wait until next week. Even if you like Episode 1, what people think of it shouldn't matter to you if Episode 2 is going to improve upon it. Then you'll have a new, better game to defend.

[T-Min]

Danimator, really. You're just repeating the same things you said before when Blacklightning specifically asked you to explain why you think Sonic 4 is good, and even though I do think you're right, just saying "OPINION NOT FACT" is not going to convince anyone. I know I dropped out of the debate before, but if you won't explain why you think Sonic 4 is a good game, then I suppose I will have to explain why I think it's good game.

Starting with the points that I can support with objective facts (not saying that these things are objectively GOOD, just that they are there and they are things I liked about the game):

- Colorful graphics, especially in Splash Hill.

- Many levels based around gimmicks, a few of them even new (although they may be somewhat similar to or perhaps inspired by other gimmicks in the series)

- Features fast sections reminiscent of Rush as well as stop-and-go platforming reminiscent of the classics.

- Special stages that are played by tilting the stage to guide Sonic through them

- SUPER SONIC!

Now what is subject to personal taste:

- I enjoyed using the homing attack in the game

- Say what you will, but I loved Sonic 4's soundtrack, the Lost Labyrinth and Mad Gear tracks in particular.

EDIT:

No one is going to win this argument. We can agree that you can have fun with the game, but it's still an unpolished game. There are technical faults with the game that are objectively technical faults. You can tolerate them and have some fun with the game, but in comparison to the previous 2D Sonic games or even 2D platformers in general, these technical faults are glaring and need to be addressed now.

Look, I'll just take out the root beers so we can wait until next week. Even if you like Episode 1, what people think of it shouldn't matter to you if Episode 2 is going to improve upon it. Then you'll have a new, better game to defend.

Edited June 17, 2011 by T-Man

[Facehugger]

No one is going to win this argument.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Facehugger

[TheDanimator]

Based on logic and overall quality, Blacklightning should have won this debate several posts ago. Many people use stubborness in place of reason to further their arguments. It is infernal for people who actually know how to argue, to have an opponent that is so stubborn that the person arguing intelligently loses out because he/she cannot be bothered to become subject to such nonsense for large periods of time; especially when they come onto Forums of their own leisure, and especially so even more if they debate for enjoyment.

Unfortunately, I haven't played the game and as such can't contribute anything substansial to the topic.

However, I will say that it would appear that you two are wasting your time with him.

Blacklightning was not being logical because he was stating things as objective when they were subjective from the beginning. I didnt argue why i personally enjoyed the game with blacklighting because I found it more logical to argue with him after he realizes the difference between fact and opinion.

Would YOU prefer debating a point with someone who continually stated opinions as facts?

Please explain how I was using stubbornness over reason.

Is it not reasonable to want to debate with someone who understands the difference between objective and subjective and fact vs opinion?

Tell me truthfully, did you actually read ALL of what was said between us? If not, I dont think it is your place to say who should of won the debate.

Edited June 17, 2011 by TheDanimator

[Sean]

Shut up.

Everyone shut up right now.

This is ridiculous. This shit's like a fucking circus performance. Enough with this fucking fact vs. opinion debacle; this is not something anyone can "win" because of how heated it's become. Don't even try to continue this debate in a civilized manner. Just drop it.

Flyboy has already told you all to cut it out and her warning went largely unheeded. If I hear one more peep out of someone about this, I'll be more than glad to strike them.

[Blacklightning]

but if you won't explain why you think Sonic 4 is a good game, then I suppose I will have to explain why I think it's good game.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Blacklightning

[TheDanimator]

@T-man

Blacklightning specifically asked you to explain why you think Sonic 4 is good

You do realize I explained many of the reasons why I like it in the first post on this thread right?

I will go into further detail later on about it.

[BountyHunter]

I hate the flipping cards you have to jump across in the third level of the Casino stages. Otherwise, I'm loving S4 so far.

[Chibinuva]

I'll try just for kicks and giggles....

1. Shrinking to bug size and blast around a house.

2. sewer system?

3. shrinking to cell size and exploring the animal/human body.

Haha Yeah 1 and 3 are kinda the same but I'd LOL so hard if that is actually in one game.

I'm not even trying to argue with you I'm simply answering the questions you ask with the answers that lie inside your questions.

EDIT: now that I think about it, the sewer system was done in SA2 with knuckles. So I'll replace that with a race/speed track.