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Any one else tired of 2d/3d?


thatguyfrom03

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Honestly, if anything, I just want Sonic Team to just take the platforming gameplay from Prince of Persia: Sands of Time and its sequels and tweak it to suit the fast-paced nature of Sonic better. The Prince does shit on a regular basis that Sonic SHOULD be doing, and yet isn't, and it flows extremely well, and it even had a mechanic explicitly for the purpose of reducing frustration from dying and to try and keep the flow (though the 2008 game doesn't have a limit to how many times you can do this, the Sands of Time games did, and if you screwed up too many times, back to the checkpoint, mate). Hell, it could even compliment momentum-based gameplay perfectly (eg. your speed determines how long and far you can run across/up a wall). THAT would be way better than the Unleashed formula.

Edited by Scar
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The problem would still continue if we just switch to all 2D or 3D, TBH.

And for those talking about Classic Sonic in side-games, I beg to differ.

I really wouldn't like Classic Sonic to get his own Game series. For instance, I think it doesn't make very much sense. Why have that, when you can just use Modern Sonic's design for an equally good game? Looks don't affect a game's value in plot and gameplay. It's more like plot and gameplay in themselves are what's important in a game.

C. Sonic should be around only for this game, and maybe in big games, like other Anniversary games and such. Nothing else.It would make no sense and would confuse parents even further. :lol:

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3D/2D Unleashed/Colors-style gameplay is awesome. Don't scrap it. Keep improving on it, make Sonic's free-roaming controls smoother and keep on with the platforming in 3D.

Which is what they're doing. Heck, the drift is replaced with a rolling animation. If you snake properly, this is effectively consistent rolling in 3D Sonic.

Which is awesome.

Still think they should replace the slide with rolling too, but that's just me.

:P
Edited by Indigo Rush
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1260117992065.gif

No. I am really, really fucking tired of hearing this garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc2RMHir8nU

0:00 - 0:40 = Drifting around corners, trying to board towards the ramps, timing the press of the jump button, trying to land on wires, and avoiding robots.

0:40 - 0:50 = Small platforming segment.

0:50 - 1:15 = Small area to run around in, with robots to attack and red rings to find.

1:15 - 1:20 = Short automated segment paying homage to SA2.

1:20 - 2:00 = 2D platforming.

2:00 - 2:07 = Small bit paying homage to SA2.

2:07 - 2:57 = Giant fucking truck. Dodge those saw blades and conserve your boost energy or be roadkill.

There is not one, not one, segment of "boost to win". I've said it before and I'll continue ad nauseam: It's fine if you don't like something, but don't start talking out of your ass looking for justification. It's annoying and insulting to people who do like it.

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The problem would still continue if we just switch to all 2D or 3D, TBH.

And for those talking about Classic Sonic in side-games, I beg to differ.

I really wouldn't like Classic Sonic to get his own Game series. For instance, I think it doesn't make very much sense. Why have that, when you can just use Modern Sonic's design for an equally good game? Looks don't affect a game's value in plot and gameplay. It's more like plot and gameplay in themselves are what's important in a game.

C. Sonic should be around only for this game, and maybe in big games, like other Anniversary games and such. Nothing else.It would make no sense and would confuse parents even further. :lol:

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. When I said Paper Mario, I meant it literally. Paper Mario offers such a drastic change in style and gameplay that it's definitely worth having an entire side series for; the same applies for Classic Sonic. The games have a style unique to that of the current, modern style. The most drastic change, however is in the gameplay. We haven't had a classic styled game since 2002, and it's unique and liked enough that SEGA thought it a good idea to split the 20th anniversary game in half for it. I think a side series dedicated to continuing that style of gameplay would not only make SEGA a lot of money, but it would also give us TEEM CLASIK kids a bunch of fun games to play. ;)

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3D/2D Unleashed/Colors-style gameplay is awesome. Don't scrap it. Keep improving on it, make Sonic's free-roaming controls smoother and keep on with the platforming in 3D.

Which is what they're doing. Heck, the drift is replaced with a rolling animation. If you snake properly, this is effectively consistent rolling in 3D Sonic.

Which is awesome.

Still think they should replace the slide with rolling too, but that's just me.

:P

You know what, youre right. I was playing colors and I realized I thought the transitions made the game as fun as it was. Ive been around the fanbase too long with the "if I dont like, scrap it" mentality. I still dislike the way unleashed handles 2d, but the general concept is not bad. maybe get the colors team to handle primarily 2d stages or somethinh.

Preaching to the choir about the spin dash drift. Coolest sonic move since the peelout.

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There is not one, not one, segment of "boost to win". I've said it before and I'll continue ad nauseam: It's fine if you don't like something, but don't start talking out of your ass looking for justification. It's annoying and insulting to people who do like it.

I'm sorry, it just felt like that. When I was playing Sonic Unleashed and the 3D segments of Sonic Colours, there was barely any substance to it bar bloody boosting.

Unless you were me, and found him hard to control anyway (Less so on Colours though, I could actually cope with boosting)

I do apologise if I set you off. But it genuinely did feel on rails. Admittedly, I've not considered Generations yet (Which seems to pull more actual gameplay in) as I haven't even got chance to play it for obvious reasons.

But honestly, that's how the game felt to me =/ I'm not trying to justify it like half the people who claim what I did. That's actually how it felt to me. Hell, there's a couple of levels in Unleashed and Colours that encourage you to run round in circles while holding the boost button! Colours is even easier than the Unleashed ones.

You can claim I'm spouting nonsense, but honestly. I found the 3D segments boring (And on Unleashed, AGGRAVATING) for that reason, it really did feel like "Hold boost, press a few other buttons now and then, win".

Again, I'm not factoring Generations in till I actually play it, be it SoS or bloody December...

Edited by DarkOverord
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You're boosting, maybe moving the stick a little bit, pressing the A button when not pressing it hurts or kills you, but for the most part the game is taking care of the important things. The player is just there to fill in some cracks.

Edited by Phos
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To me, it felt like it was focusing on testing my reaction time and memorization skills rather than my ability to jump with precision. It's a different take on speedy platforming, and I'll be damned if I'm just going to let people tell me there's no substance. Coating the claim with a "TO ME" doesn't really make it sound any better, honestly. You're still basically telling me; "That game you love to play? You're just holding down a button and watching a movie. No substance. TO ME". Tell you what; tomorrow morning, I'll get my own run of Jungle Joyride and do the same thing I did with City Escape. Is that enough to prove my point?

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*sigh* How can anyone say that not just Generations HD is "boost to win," but Unleashed, too?!

Unleashed daytime is not — nor was it ever — designed for you to hold down the boost until you actually know what you're doing! The game TRICKS you into using it because you have it with you at all times. But boosting mindlessly will actually KILL you! SU HD punishes you for being reckless. That's why you hold off pressing the boost button until you begin to understand the level layout. That and SU HD (daytime) does have platforming. It's just that it's so quick and doesn't begin to materialize until about one-third into it.

Generations's Modern levels so far seems to include a ton of platforming as well as various terrains to prevent you from mindlessly boosting so much, City Escape in particular.

Edited by Attitude Adjustment
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You're boosting, maybe moving the stick a little bit, pressing the A button when not pressing it hurts or kills you, but for the most part the game is taking care of the important things. The player is just there to fill in some cracks.
2821.eSMACK.jpg

I honestly find it kinda hard to believe that this quote came from the very same person who once complained the game expected too much of you. Christ's sake. Go back and play Adabat again and tell me how much automation helps. Go ahead, I'll wait. Hell, Unleashed threw that mentality out as early as Chun-Nan and Holaska in many cases. Regardless of whether the game or the player is at fault, playing the game just like that WILL get you killed.

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Oh, boy, someone actually decided to start an argument with me! This will be very interesting.

That's completely backwards logic.

Why would (and why should) Sonic Team completely ditch the gameplay engine that they've gone and tried to perfect, so they can then try and pull a 180 on Sonic's game design philosophy?

That style of gameplay, isn't even remotely close to how level design and platforming works in Sonic games. Its radical to say the least, and rather counter-intuitive to the development team to boot.

Edited by Masaru Daimon
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Anyways, my issues with the Unleashed formula come as thus:

- The 3D gameplay is forgettable and generally formulatic. It basically consists of running (and boosting) on straight roads, dodging obstacles with the quick-step, with the occasional drift and slide, and jumping consists of basically homing attack chains, and the very occasional, very simplistic platforming sequence. Oh, and rail-grinding and QTEs. And the occasional 'alternate path' that probably doesn't extend to even a fraction of the level's length. Did I forget anything? It's basically all this in repetition with a new coat of paint, and an increasing level of difficulty... Which, in Unleashed's case, goes absolutely insane and unfair halfway through.

- And speaking of incredibly simplistic gameplay, it speaks volumes when I find that I can only remember TWO platforming sequences from Unleashed and Colours. One of them is the rotating platforms from Chun-Nan.

- As for the difficulty? Colours managed to improve on that... Somewhat. It still throws trial and error gameplay at you at times. Unleashed was absolutely horrible about it, however.

- Sonic handles like a truck. Driven by a drunken cow.

- The 2D controls in both games are crap, and it only became evident in Colours because it actually expected you to perform precision platforming with ridiculously loose jumping controls which made said precision platforming a bitch to execute. I have a feeling that Sonic Team isn't going to fix this in Generations.

- The 2D gameplay is used as a crutch for the 3D sections being utterly incapable of doing any sort of slower, precision platforming. I want a good 3D Sonic game with precision platforming. Using 2D gameplay to compensate for sub-par 3D gameplay is just... Well... LAME. Hell, that in itself is basically my full argument for why this whole 3D/2D mix is just STUPID.

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I like to call the boosting button "make Sonic Unleashed exciting" button.

Because boosting is literally everything I remember from that game. The level design was pretty unmemorable without it and it'd have to be redesigned to not be built around it for me to buy the argument that "it gives you all this boost but you're not supposed to use it unless you know what you're doing".

Colors did that better because it gave you the boost sparingly. Unleashed doesn't. Just about every thing you do in that game expands your boost gauge.

I like Unleashed in an "all flash no substance" way. I understand why people wouldn't like it however.

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I don't get you people.Colors and Generation's 2D has platforming,has speed,the levels even have layers like in the classics,what else do you want? I also would love a fully Three-Dimensional Sonic Game,but come on people,that's no reason to hate Colors and Generations.

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I don't care anymore. Whatever we ask, sonicteam won't be able to get it right so I am starting to understand those who just go with the flow. No more standards just enjoy the games for what they ar e

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I like to call the boosting button "make Sonic Unleashed exciting" button.

Because boosting is literally everything I remember from that game. The level design was pretty unmemorable without it and it'd have to be redesigned to not be built around it for me to buy the argument that "it gives you all this boost but you're not supposed to use it unless you know what you're doing".

Colors did that better because it gave you the boost sparingly. Unleashed doesn't. Just about every thing you do in that game expands your boost gauge.

I like Unleashed in an "all flash no substance" way. I understand why people wouldn't like it however.

Edited by Dissident
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If anyone finds the controls in Colors crap, they should probably stop playing plattformers. If you can get used to the weighty-ness of NSBWii and the sometimes akward control with Mario on planetoids in Mario Galaxy,and even DKCR slightly different physics, Colors shoudn't be too big of a problem.

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I like the 2D/3D perspective, even in Generations. The split allows for each section to do something a bit different: while in full 3D, reaction time and going at high-speeds while navigating the environment like a traditional Adventure game at points is the goal, while in 2D, the focus is placed a bit more on multi-tiered level design, or slowing down for some platforming. Sometimes, as City Escape showed, these stereotypes could be reversed, but overall, I think it's fun and works great. Plus, while Classic Sonic's control scheme is built around being fully 2D, such as being able to perform the spin roll while moving and pressing the down button, Modern Sonic can do both 2D AND 3D, and his control scheme reflects his more complex style, and I think it's an excellent contrast.

I'm sick of seeing MORE 2D than 3D, like in Colors, given how that was supposed to be a 3D Sonic game. But with Unleashed and Generations, I like it, because 3D is the dominant style, and the 2D adds a nice nostalgic spice to the flavor IF done right.

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If anyone finds the controls in Colors crap, they should probably stop playing plattformers. If you can get used to the weighty-ness of NSBWii and the sometimes akward control with Mario on planetoids in Mario Galaxy,and even DKCR slightly different physics, Colors shoudn't be too big of a problem.

Edited by pppp
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I disagree, on your first run through a level, it's definitely not a good idea to charge ahead with the boost if you don't know exactly what's ahead of you. This results in death and "BAAWWWW THE GAME IS PUNISHING ME FOR TRYING TO GO FAST BAAAAWWWWWW". For me, that was part of the fun of the Unleashed levels; the game gives you the tools for a perfect speedrun, but it's up to you to become skilled enough in the level to dodge all obstacles without stopping.

You'll find that I'm one of the few people who honestly didn't care at what "cheap trap" Unleashed threw at you compared to how I felt whenever I wasn't boosting like a maniac, not until about Eggmanland.

Unleashed's daytime stages for me play like they're coin-ops in an arcade hall. It's less of a test of skill in the design of depth and understanding of mechanics and more of a reactionary test where you really get the speed amassed in all those great Sonic cut scenes, but have to be incredibly quick on your toes and get those trigger fingers ready.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I found nothing exhilarating about not boosting in the game since the levels were so drawn out to most of the time and encouraged boosting. Controlling Sonic at top speeds when it was possible was also heavy and all the more of a chore so there was practically no reason for me to not boost because it made things all the more sturdier and at least I wouldn't have to stop and do a homing attack on enemies that were in the way all the time.

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Oh, boy, someone actually decided to start an argument with me! This will be very interesting.

Ah, that's where you're wrong. It's not like you need to throw in a whole bunch of new controls or completely reinvent the gameplay or something - all you need is two buttons - the jump button, and the 'action' button

Perhaps, but it's become clear that Sonic also drifts, boosts, slides, quicksteps and ring-dashes. Mapping that to only one action button can be pretty tedious. The buttons they've chosen for these moves, which are pretty essential if you want to actually do anything while bursting forward at Sonic speed, feel natural and make sense. Otherwise, you're just going forward pretty fast... and while looking pretty, some people like to turn and dodge obstacles. Try doing that at 300+ miles per hour with only an analog stick without running into things and being twitchy as all get out. This is what Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2 and Heroes suffered from. We finally have something to do while running fast besides jumping. These new moves add something more to the experience.

Yes, Sonic runs fast, but what does running fast do for me, exactly? These moves solve that.

(I dunno what it is on gamepads, but it's right-click on PC). We're talking stuff like wall-running up and across walls, rope-swinging (and using ropes to extend wall-runs like in Warrior Within, which was genius, by the way), and more, it's hardly changing the gameplay drastically, all it's doing is adding a whole bunch of 'parkour' moves that are proven to play naturally and flow very well. Climbing ledges and pillars isn't as fast paced, but every game needs its slower-paced moments, and The Forgotten Sands streamlined pillar-jumping heavily. We've seen Sonic use ladders in SA1, for pete's sake.

The moves you suggested are in most Sonic games already, and are initiated with the jump button for the most part. What exactly is the problem, now? Lack of ladders? I guess ladders are cool, but really, only one game used them, and we never saw them again. I wonder why.

Seriously, those sort of moves suit Sonic way more than, say, God of War-style gameplay. *Shudder*

If your fear is seeing the Werehog again, then you're being a bit too paranoid. If it's QTEs, you should note that those are all but eliminated in the newer games post-Unleashed. Sonic Team is learning from their missteps and improving their formula. Don't sweat it.

And you never addressed the "time rewind" mechanic, but I might as well elaborate anyway. Lives are becoming increasingly worthless in gaming, all they amount to these days is how many times you can die before you get chucked back to the start of the level and try again. The Sands of Time "time rewind" is basically a bunch of lives that allows you to go back right before the point where you died, so there is very little time waiting before you can try again, keeping the flow as best as possible, and even reducing frustration, considering Unleashed (and Colours, to a slightly lesser extent) has a sadistic habit of throwing death traps at the player they simply cannot avoid the first time until it's too late, unless they're very lucky. Granted, while it doesn't solve such dreadful level design, but it mitigates the frustration.

So... Sonic should be able to go back in time or something? Or are you suggesting that he re-spawns the exact place where he died? That seems a little weird and unnecessary... and negates the necessity of check points. As for level design being unforgiving, I suppose I can give you that, but looking at City Escape and how it's looking, I'm not sure I can see your argument working anymore. You yourself said that "Unleashed, and to a lesser extent Colors," let me add to that: "and to an even lesser extent Generations..." They're constantly improving and polishing a formula that is starting to look like the de-facto 3D Sonic.

Colours was made by Sonic Team. It used the exact same physics as Unleashed, right down to the shitty 2D controls (which weren't noticable in Unleashed because it didn't actually demand anything of you concerning anything more than simple platforming). Even if it was made by a different 'division', there could have been many people working cross-projects.

A few things, Sonic Team is divided into a few other groups of people. The ones who worked on Sonic Team are the same who worked on the Storybook series. You can't tell me the physics and gameplay engine is the exact same unless you provide some better proof than that. Have you played both? I'm under the impression that you have, you'll notice that the games differ in how Sonic moves direction-wise, how he jumps, accelerates and how he controls in actual 3D? It's reminiscent of Unleashed, but 3D in Colors is divided into 3 sections: Quickstep, boost, and drift. Unleashed integrates all mechanics together more freely, rather than restrict the player in these areas. The 2D mechanics are only as "shitty" as you see them, I also want to point out. The way he handles in Colors is also different (if better) than in Unleashed. Play them back-to-back.

Anyways, my issues with the Unleashed formula come as thus:

- The 3D gameplay is forgettable and generally formulatic. It basically consists of running (and boosting) on straight roads, dodging obstacles with the quick-step, with the occasional drift and slide, and jumping consists of basically homing attack chains, and the very occasional, very simplistic platforming sequence. Oh, and rail-grinding and QTEs. And the occasional 'alternate path' that probably doesn't extend to even a fraction of the level's length. Did I forget anything? It's basically all this in repetition with a new coat of paint, and an increasing level of difficulty... Which, in Unleashed's case, goes absolutely insane and unfair halfway through.

That looks like a lot of things to do. You actually managed to spite your own argument by making Sonic look far more varied than Mario, who just walks around and platforms for the most part. Sonic has a third mechanic to jumping and moving; running really freaking fast. Those moves give us something fun to do when doing so. It's a game. You do things in games. What do you do when Sonic's running? You dodge obstacles, turn, slide and grind rails. What exactly do you want? Him to be slower?

- And speaking of incredibly simplistic gameplay, it speaks volumes when I find that I can only remember TWO platforming sequences from Unleashed and Colours. One of them is the rotating platforms from Chun-Nan.

Again, two different development teams, the formula improves with each release, and... jeez. Are you talking 3D or 2D platforming now?! Play Eggmanland, Jungle Joyride, Savannah Citadel and Skyscraper Scamper if you want some more 3D platforming. If you want more 2D platforming, play everything.

- As for the difficulty? Colours managed to improve on that... Somewhat. It still throws trial and error gameplay at you at times. Unleashed was absolutely horrible about it, however.

So you admit that the formula is improving with each release?

- Sonic handles like a truck. Driven by a drunken cow.

Also looks to be improving. You seem to act like things can't change or improve.

- The 2D controls in both games are crap, and it only became evident in Colours because it actually expected you to perform precision platforming with ridiculously loose jumping controls which made said precision platforming a bitch to execute. I have a feeling that Sonic Team isn't going to fix this in Generations.

Why have that feeling? Again, you're acting like they won't improve it, when after reading impressions from other users (particularly on Retro) that controls have improved.

- The 2D gameplay is used as a crutch for the 3D sections being utterly incapable of doing any sort of slower, precision platforming. I want a good 3D Sonic game with precision platforming. Using 2D gameplay to compensate for sub-par 3D gameplay is just... Well... LAME. Hell, that in itself is basically my full argument for why this whole 3D/2D mix is just STUPID.

And that's a pretty lame way to back an argument. It boils down to: I think it's stupid therefore it's stupid. lack of 3D platforming? Hello, my name is City Escape and a chunk of Unleashed. Play Jungle Joyride again. Seriously.

I could go on forever about what's wrong with the Unleashed formula, really. It features the sort of problems you can't just fix by 'tweaking to perfection'.

Except you really only provided arguments that are already being tweaked to perfection!

Edited by Indigo Rush
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I disagree, on your first run through a level, it's definitely not a good idea to charge ahead with the boost if you don't know exactly what's ahead of you. This results in death and "BAAWWWW THE GAME IS PUNISHING ME FOR TRYING TO GO FAST BAAAAWWWWWW". For me, that was part of the fun of the Unleashed levels; the game gives you the tools for a perfect speedrun, but it's up to you to become skilled enough in the level to dodge all obstacles without stopping.

Hey, fuck you.

Sorry for going offtopic guys

regarding the spin-dash: I realize this is probably an area that could be debated heavily, and that some people have very differing opinions here. Overall, after playing it extensively, I personally feel like it fits well in the game, and requires a certain amount of skill to use effectively. Spin-dashing, much like the boost, may seem at first glance to be a strong, overpowered move that is all you need to use - but trying to spam it in a level you know nothing about is just as dangerous as boosting blindly when playing as Modern Sonic.

When you get your hands on the demo, I think you'll see what I mean. It's one thing to see gameplay footage and to guess or predict what it'll feel like, but when you actually get to sit down and run through a level, it's another entirely. Almost all the feedback thus far from the GHZ demo at Sonic Boom and E3 has been fantastic for Classic Sonic, and I hope you'll find your concerns are similarly addressed when you try the game.

They're probably trying hard to get the rolling physics right but they ended up compensating with a "spamdash". A spindash that basically works kind of like the boost and can be activated while running in momentum instead of the older method where you had to stand still and lose all momentum to perform a spindash. In the original games, speed was satisfying because you had to make an effort to reach Sonic's top speed and maintain it. Spin-Dash-on-the-go completely ruins this."

It's just one of a few examples that I cared about. At first I was like lolwut, now I don't care anymore.

Standards are dangerous when it comes to sonic games :D

Edited by Jaouad
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You'll find that I'm one of the few people who honestly didn't care at what "cheap trap" Unleashed threw at you compared to how I felt whenever I wasn't boosting like a maniac, not until about Eggmanland.

Unleashed's daytime stages for me play like they're coin-ops in an arcade hall. It's less of a test of skill in the design of depth and understanding of mechanics and more of a reactionary test where you really get the speed amassed in all those great Sonic cut scenes, but have to be incredibly quick on your toes and get those trigger fingers ready.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I found nothing exhilarating about not boosting in the game since the levels were so drawn out to most of the time and encouraged boosting. Controlling Sonic at top speeds when it was possible was also heavy and all the more of a chore so there was practically no reason for me to not boost because it made things all the more sturdier and at least I wouldn't have to stop and do a homing attack on enemies that were in the way all the time.

I disagree with that,I found them to be confined and intricate,as in comparision to Rush. They are about on par with SA2 in 3d-Design I think.

Also I found controlling Sonic without the Boost way easier, and felt pretty good, better than the Adventures did at High-Speed.

Edited by ChikaBoing
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