Any one else tired of 2d/3d?

[turbojet]

Prince of Persia is the golden standard of 3D platforming.

3/4s of your post was this. I will address the other fourth later, but now...

No really. You are using a series that is completely different in every aspect in goal, execution, and general allure than Sonic in any game. You are using a series that was abandoned by Ubisoft in favor of Assassin's Creed. This sounds so absurd. Prince of Persia's(2008) wallrunning was mechanical while SoT wallrunning was so contrived and situational that it became obvious that the game was forcing to do one thing with it's entirely situational level design that tells you that this is the only way you can progress. That isn't a diss on the series, but since you love the series so much and harp on Unleashed for being the opposite of what you want, than so be it. The level design for Unleashed is so generic(in your opinion), but Prince of Persia is so damned great? You want to know why? Because Prince of Persia isn't about speed in the slightest and emphasizes execution. Something Sonic never has done to the extent and never was about. Never, and I MEAN NEVER ,has Sonic had to traverse through multiple death traps, meticulous puzzles, and elaborate platforms at the rate of PoP because he is played at a different and a hell of lot more forgiving atmosphere. You emphasized that SA was something like this, but the only times that I recall that he was were in small sections in Lost World, one section in Ice Cap, and Final Egg. I would like to say to those stage "yeah, thanks for being a typical platform stage." There was nothing astonishing about those stages platforming since it relied on timing, simple puzzles, and knowing when and where to jump. They were nothing like Prince of Persia because as soon as those sections were over, it was back to the old "dashpad to make-up for actual speed nonsense" gameplay that has always been a solid criticism of SA playstyle.

Anyways, my issues with the Unleashed formula come as thus:

- The 3D gameplay is forgettable and generally formulatic. It basically consists of running (and boosting) on straight roads, dodging obstacles with the quick-step, with the occasional drift and slide, and jumping consists of basically homing attack chains, and the very occasional, very simplistic platforming sequence. Oh, and rail-grinding and QTEs. And the occasional 'alternate path' that probably doesn't extend to even a fraction of the level's length. Did I forget anything? It's basically all this in repetition with a new coat of paint, and an increasing level of difficulty... Which, in Unleashed's case, goes absolutely insane and unfair halfway through.

I certainly remember running on water in the Artic more than the "platform greatness" of Ice Cap.

- And speaking of incredibly simplistic gameplay, it speaks volumes when I find that I can only remember TWO platforming sequences from Unleashed and Colours. One of them is the rotating platforms from Chun-Nan.

Eggmanland.

- As for the difficulty? Colours managed to improve on that... Somewhat. It still throws trial and error gameplay at you at times. Unleashed was absolutely horrible about it, however.

I am quite curious on how Unleashed,being the first game of this playstyle, gets the shaft when Colors is supposed to be the improvement of everything that was wrong with Sonic Unleashed. Mind you, I never played Colors.

- Sonic handles like a truck. Driven by a drunken cow.

When you are boosting recklessly, yes. Yes, he does. Flying rockets are hard to handle.

- The 2D controls in both games are crap, and it only became evident in Colours because it actually expected you to perform precision platforming with ridiculously loose jumping controls which made said precision platforming a bitch to execute. I have a feeling that Sonic Team isn't going to fix this in Generations.

You are the only person who I've heard this complaint from. The only one.

- The 2D gameplay is used as a crutch for the 3D sections being utterly incapable of doing any sort of slower, precision platforming. I want a good 3D Sonic game with precision platforming. Using 2D gameplay to compensate for sub-par 3D gameplay is just... Well... LAME. Hell, that in itself is basically my full argument for why this whole 3D/2D mix is just STUPID.

And your argument for why you dislike Sonic amounts to the very first quotation. This isn't PoP and as much as I would like Ubisoft to work on it, you should't expect Sega or Sonic Team to give a damn about what Ubisoft does, did, or has done.

[Scar]

They're probably trying hard to get the rolling physics right but they ended up compensating with a "spamdash". A spindash that basically works kind of like the boost and can be activated while running in momentum instead of the older method where you had to stand still and lose all momentum to perform a spindash. In the original games, speed was satisfying because you had to make an effort to reach Sonic's top speed and maintain it. Spin-Dash-on-the-go completely ruins this."

Yes, which is why they allow you to do both. Have you not been paying any attention? You can use the "stop, crouch and spam the jump button method", or you can use the SA1 style "spindash on the go" method. There is a reason they allowed both.

1) because purists would bitch to no end

2) Speedrunners, would love the "Spindash on the move"

Also, I'd like to point out something from Sonic Boom preveiws. You cannot spam the Spindash. Why? Because you can't spindash while rolling. You have to wait for Sonic to stop rolling before you can start another spindash. Spammable? Fuck no.

It's just one of a few examples that I cared about. At first I was like lolwut, now I don't care anymore.

Standards are dangerous when it comes to sonic games

You come off as a massive prick here. You wanna know why? Because that statement basically says "I must lower my standards in order enjoy this," which implies that we don't have standards for liking or accepting it. You haven't even played the goddamn game yet, and you're talking about standards? You need a massive reality check.

TL;DR

Cut it with the "Holier than thou" bullshit

@Masaru Daimon

You don't need complex mechanics to have deep gameplay.

Sonic games were, are and should always continue to be pick-up-and-play platformers. Besides, SA2 and Heroes proved that mapping all of Sonic's actions to a single button is a clusterfuck. "Oh no, I missed the Light-dash catchment area, and accidentally activated the spindash"

Also in platformers, the depth does not stem from the array of abilities and actions the character can perform, at least not in Sonic styled platformers. The actions in Unleashed are perfectly valid, and are much better suited for gameplay as rapid as Sonic (Sonic moves at least 10x faster than the Good Prince of Persia). Also, when moving at speed, it is impossible to turn on a dime. This is basic physics. Depth comes from level design. If you want more deep and involving gameplay complain about level design, not about how Sonic should be more like PoP.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Scar

[Rusty Spy]

For once, I'm with Masaru Daimon on this.

One thing that I thought would fit Sonic like a fresh pair of pants was parkour, as it really expands the platforming possibilities and is all about speed and flow.

Also in platformers, the depth does not stem from the array of abilities and actions the character can perform, at least not in Sonic styled platformers.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Black Spy

[Indigo Rush]

For once, I'm with Masaru Daimon on this.

One thing that I thought would fit Sonic like a fresh pair of pants was parkour, as it really expands the platforming possibilities and is all about speed and flow.

Parkour is not about doing a bunch of actions at once, in actuality, the whole philosophy behind parkour is getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, exactly what SONIC is all about. The goal of parkour practitioners is to get past, over, under or through obstacles without wasting any time. What this equates to in a Sonic game is platforming while moving fast.

In the real world, parkour practitioners use it to make themselves more

But a level is only as fun as the means to get around it. Would you say moving around in GTA4 is more fun than moving around in InFAMOUS because GTA's world is bigger?

Depth does come from level design, but it also comes from the means of getting around that level.

And it's not that Sonic should be like Prince of Persia (personally I'd make it more like Prototype), but it's more that the type of gameplay (i.e parkour) would fit Sonic so well.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Ekajra]

People do realize they don't have to use boost, right? Just throwin' that out there.

Anyway, I don't think I'm tired of the 2D/3D combo style, though I will admit it seems a bit odd in Generations when you add the classic style side, considering the purpose of the current gameplay model is sort of to add some of the classic flavor to a faster 3D game. But apart from that I think they should stick with it for at least a few more games. A good chunk of the problems in Sonic games come from the fact that they keep changing up the gameplay style without spending enough time to really nail down a particular formula. So I'm hoping they stay like this until they can really get it figured out, and then just tweaking as needed without completely throwing everything out and starting over.

I will say I do prefer more 3D over 2D. The 2D sections are okay, but I'd prefer that as they improve on the gameplay that they start shifting towards more 3D with a few 2D bits here and there to mix it up or for visual effects.

[Rusty Spy]

Is there some other aspect of parkour I'm missing? I don't see any of it missing, honestly. Sonic does just about everything.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Black Spy

[Indigo Rush]

The thing is, there's little emphasis. While Sonic does wallrun/jump, they're either entirely automated sections in the former's case, or simply aren't utilized much if at all throughout the level.

Sonic is still 90% running really fast. It's less about merging speed and platforming seamlessly and more having long stretches of running really fast and short periods of jumping. Granted, Unleashed was pretty close in it's level design, but it was still too absorbed in boosting and the controls didn't really encourage, let alone actually have, smooth and flowing platforming.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Rusty Spy]

Will be or were?

[HyperGogeta]

No. Even though I'd prefer a pure open environment Sonic Game.

[Phos]

I honestly find it kinda hard to believe that this quote came from the very same person who once complained the game expected too much of you. Christ's sake. Go back and play Adabat again and tell me how much automation helps. Go ahead, I'll wait. Hell, Unleashed threw that mentality out as early as Chun-Nan and Holaska in many cases. Regardless of whether the game or the player is at fault, playing the game just like that WILL get you killed.

So, what, you're saying that's not what you do in Unleashed? These levels are basically hot wheels tracks, you go downhill, bounce off some speed boosters or something, and dodge hazards.

And since we're all handing out assignments, how about you find yourself some god damn tact.

[Blacklightning]

So, what, you're saying that's not what you do in Unleashed?

Certaintly not to the same extent you seem to be implying. Otherwise the difficulty curve would be almost horizontal... as opposed to what it was in Unleashed, which is horizontal for the first two or three continents, then shoots straight up. Even you have said this, which is why I'm having trouble understanding the reasoning for the complete 180.

I'll reiterate - if anything, everything from Chun-Nan onwards punishes unreasonably such reckless abuse of the boost, at least not without prior memorization of most of the level's layout. You treat it like a racetrack, you end up running into a death pit. I thought this was pretty much common knowledge by now.

[Indigo Rush]

So, what, you're saying that's not what you do in Unleashed?

Maybe the first chunk of levels, sure. Dragon Road and beyond? Heck no.

These levels are basically hot wheels tracks, you go downhill, bounce off some speed boosters or something, and dodge hazards.

Last I checked, hot wheels were little matchbox cars that only go on a single path with nothing but a few turns. The implication that the current-age gameplay is anything like that is laughable.

And since we're all handing out assignments, how about you find yourself some god damn tact.

Right back 'atcha.

[Phos]

It's not actually a 180: You basically need to know when to twiddle the stick or jump in advance, but the majority of getting through the level is accomplished by the level, usually by boost pads or springs. I heard the claims that you're supposed to go through the level slower at first, but this doesn't seem like a real way to play the game. The game simply seems to expect you to already know how to play it. Even the drifting segments suffer from this even though the other complaints in this post don't really apply to them. They still expect you to know when to turn in and how to go around the turn.

Like a racetrack? It reminds me a lot of a Mario Kart race track, or like a hot wheels track. Sort of like that one with the shark that eats cars. You have moments of crucial interactivity that largely result in binary pass/fail results sprinkled among swaths of the game basically taking care of itself.

[Ferno]

Let's go back to 2008 for a minute...Doodly Doodly Doodly Dooo~~

Sonic Fanbase:

"This is the greatest thing ever!"

"Imagine the platforming opportunities!"

"I think Sonic Team might just finally have it right!"

"This murder's the Adventure formula!"

------------------------

2011:

"This 2D/3D boost-fest is the bane of Sonic's existence and it needs to die."

"I wan't the adventure style back!"

"Sonic Team's using this mess as a crutch-

their using the 2D crap to hide the platforming problems of 3d"

"This is the worst thing ever."

[/observation]

Personally, I never really had a problem with the 2D/3D switches of Unleashed. As long as it was either equal, or mostly 3D I'm fine with it. If Generations is anything to go by, it looks like they took the Unleashed formula and improved it by alot.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I've said it before and I'll continue ad nauseam: It's fine if you don't like something, but don't start talking out of your ass looking for justification. It's annoying and insulting to people who do like it.

This just earned a place in my "Words of the Wise," if I can fit it in there.

On the subject of 2D/3D, I can't exactly say I'm tired of it. I'll be honest, when I play a 3D game, I expect 100% 3D and the same would apply for 2D. However, I don't have a stick so far up my ass to be so critical whenever an occasional 2D segment comes in. Not saying that everyone else here against it has a stick up theirs, it's just a figure of speech.

But frankly, Colors just shows where they went wrong in attempting 3D, as it was quite the opposite. That doesn't make it less of a fun game, but still something they should've considered. Although, I could give them the benefit of the doubt if I had more information as to why they couldn't do it. Unleashed was very unclear tho. Granted, that was the first game using the formula they had, but it goes without saying that it was made during a critical time in Sonic's history: 2 years after Sonic 06 where we were a bitching ragefest at Sonic Team and each other.

I guess that's my take on it.

Jesus Christ, it would really suck if we could do that in real life.

Edited June 16, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

That leaked trailer took me by surprise. I looked to the side and said, "clever girl."

Edited June 16, 2011 by Phos

[Indigo Rush]

This just earned a place in my "Words of the Wise," if I can fit it in there.

On the subject of 2D/3D, I can't exactly say I'm tired of it. I'll be honest, when I play a 3D game, I expect 100% 3D and the same would apply for 2D. However, I don't have a stick so far up my ass to be so critical whenever an occasional 2D segment comes in. Not saying that everyone else here against it has a stick up theirs, it's just a figure of speech.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Scar]

It's not actually a 180: You basically need to know when to twiddle the stick or jump in advance, but the majority of getting through the level is accomplished by the level, usually by boost pads or springs. I heard the claims that you're supposed to go through the level slower at first, but this doesn't seem like a real way to play the game. The game simply seems to expect you to already know how to play it. Even the drifting segments suffer from this even though the other complaints in this post don't really apply to them. They still expect you to know when to turn in and how to go around the turn.

Like a racetrack? It reminds me a lot of a Mario Kart race track, or like a hot wheels track. Sort of like that one with the shark that eats cars. You have moments of crucial interactivity that largely result in binary pass/fail results sprinkled among swaths of the game basically taking care of itself.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Scar

[ChikaBoing]

I thought the 2D/3D switching was a very clever compromise for those who wanted some more involved platforming. In 3D, because of Sonic's speed-driven philosophy, it's fairly difficult to accurately make your jumps and platform ala Mario or other platformers. The decision to restrict those mostly to 2D was a smart idea. Certain platforming elements and tricks like wall-jumping and pole-swinging work best in 2D, as well as slope-heavy architecture that we've come to know and love in the Genesis games. Also, restricting underwater to 2D was pretty smart in the case of Colors as well. You don't need to aim Sonic to grab air bubbles or worry about the behind-the-back view when you're several fathoms under the surface. It just works better this way.

[Indigo Rush]

I don't think so, while some aspects are undeniable better working in 2d(like slopes) I think limiting too many features to 2d is a rather bad Idea. One of the core Design philophies of Hashimoto and the design of Unleashed was to offer a dynamic shift without going too much on the 2d side and just limit all the Level design possibilities on that,but rather offer everything on 2d and 3d. That's why in Unleashed, both 2d and 3d had plattforming and a bit of alternate paths in Eggmanland.The 3d wasn't very exploration-based,and so was neither the 2d. There was Water-Running in 2d and 3d.There were major 2 extra-acts focused on plattforming, one completly in 2d, and another one in 3d etc. And stuff like that, it offered a careful shift were most elements of gameplay were offered in both prespectives.Something that was completly thrown out the window with Colors,but seems to return with Generations.

[ChikaBoing]

The decision to restrict those mostly to 2D was a smart idea. Certain platforming elements and tricks like wall-jumping and pole-swinging work best in 2D, as well as slope-heavy architecture that we've come to know and love in the Genesis games.

[SonikkuJeneshisu89]

I'm happy with the 2D/3D Unleashed / Colours gameplay. I agree I want to see more open 3D segments than 2D but I don't particularly mind the 2D at all. Being a fan of Sonic since I was young the 2D segments remind me of Classic gameplay while the 3D segments are the Modern gameplay. I agree when I played Colours I got frustrated at times when I wanted to play in more 3D perspective segments than the 2D but I don't really mind it at all. What I like about Sonic Generations is how open City Escape for Modern Sonic's gameplay looked. It was wide and had a lot of alternate paths and things for him to explore and it was in pure 3D perspective. It really reminded me of Sonic Adventure gameplay style with better graphics and controls.

I think Sega are on to something with Generations like its the door opener for a more solid 3D Sonic game. Unleashed, Colours and Generations all have good qualities going on in them to make a really fun and good 3D Sonic game, they just need to perfect things. If they focused on more 3D gameplay than 2D and its very open with a lot of alternate paths its perfect. Sega found a formula that works well for them and Sonic's speed they just need to work on it more and make it more 3D than 2D. They also need to reinvent the Spin Dash for Modern Sonic but that is for another topic. But as of now I'm perfectly content with the gameplay styles and have a lot of fun with them.

[Phos]

All games require you to twiddle the analogue stick, and react to obstacles and or enemies. That's how you play video games.

What were you expecting.

This is a tough distinction to draw, but I'm going to go for it: The way the levels are set up in Unleashed in such a way that the player doesn't concern themselves with which direction they need to go, or have any sort of destination in mind. While Unleashed is for the most part less rigid than secret rings, the difference is mostly on a technical level, the concern is mostly just steering.

Whatever, most of these problems seem to be a thing of the past anyway. Well, if Generations' City Escape is anything to go by.

I mean look at that level design.

It mostly just looked like a pallet swap of any Unleashed levels after he dropped the board, really.

[Indigo Rush]

It mostly just looked like a pallet swap of any Unleashed levels after he dropped the board, really.

This is why we can't have nice things, Phos. You constantly trumpet the same sentiment against Sonic Unleashed not unlike the last QTE in the final boss, but never back yourself up.

In fact, instead of countering this post, I'm going to ask you to defend your point a little better. Give us a paragraph or two, if you must. Be able to justify your opinion, sir. Everything before the chase scene at the end. The 3D platforming section with alternate paths.

Why is it a pallet swap?

Edited June 17, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Sami]

This is a tough distinction to draw, but I'm going to go for it: The way the levels are set up in Unleashed in such a way that the player doesn't concern themselves with which direction they need to go, or have any sort of destination in mind. While Unleashed is for the most part less rigid than secret rings, the difference is mostly on a technical level, the concern is mostly just steering.

I know this may be hard to believe, so bear with me: Just because you don't like that doesn't mean it's bad. Unleashed tells you where to go, and simply gives you an obstacle course to get through before reaching your goal. It's simple, it's straightforward, and it works. I far prefer this over being thrown in a playground. For this reason, I dislike Super Mario 64 and other platformers that do this. Let me know where I need to go, and I'll go there; by doing this, you can put all of your attention on avoiding obstacles and not have to worry about where to go. I know this may blow your mind, but people like this.

It mostly just looked like a pallet swap of any Unleashed levels after he dropped the board, really.

...

*cough*

No. I am really, really fucking tired of hearing this garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc2RMHir8nU

0:00 - 0:40 = Drifting around corners, trying to board towards the ramps, timing the press of the jump button, trying to land on wires, and avoiding robots.

0:40 - 0:50 = Small platforming segment.

0:50 - 1:15 = Small area to run around in, with robots to attack and red rings to find.

1:15 - 1:20 = Short automated segment paying homage to SA2.

1:20 - 2:00 = 2D platforming.

2:00 - 2:07 = Small bit paying homage to SA2.

2:07 - 2:57 = Giant fucking truck. Dodge those saw blades and conserve your boost energy or be roadkill.

There is not one, not one, segment of "boost to win". I've said it before and I'll continue ad nauseam: It's fine if you don't like something, but don't start talking out of your ass looking for justification. It's annoying and insulting to people who do like it.