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thatguyfrom03

Any one else tired of 2d/3d?

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This is a tough distinction to draw, but I'm going to go for it: The way the levels are set up in Unleashed in such a way that the player doesn't concern themselves with which direction they need to go, or have any sort of destination in mind. While Unleashed is for the most part less rigid than secret rings, the difference is mostly on a technical level, the concern is mostly just steering.

I know this may be hard to believe, so bear with me: Just because you don't like that doesn't mean it's bad. Unleashed tells you where to go, and simply gives you an obstacle course to get through before reaching your goal. It's simple, it's straightforward, and it works. I far prefer this over being thrown in a playground. For this reason, I dislike Super Mario 64 and other platformers that do this. Let me know where I need to go, and I'll go there; by doing this, you can put all of your attention on avoiding obstacles and not have to worry about where to go. I know this may blow your mind, but people like this.

It mostly just looked like a pallet swap of any Unleashed levels after he dropped the board, really.

...

*cough*

1260117992065.gif

No. I am really, really fucking tired of hearing this garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc2RMHir8nU

0:00 - 0:40 = Drifting around corners, trying to board towards the ramps, timing the press of the jump button, trying to land on wires, and avoiding robots.

0:40 - 0:50 = Small platforming segment.

0:50 - 1:15 = Small area to run around in, with robots to attack and red rings to find.

1:15 - 1:20 = Short automated segment paying homage to SA2.

1:20 - 2:00 = 2D platforming.

2:00 - 2:07 = Small bit paying homage to SA2.

2:07 - 2:57 = Giant fucking truck. Dodge those saw blades and conserve your boost energy or be roadkill.

There is not one, not one, segment of "boost to win". I've said it before and I'll continue ad nauseam: It's fine if you don't like something, but don't start talking out of your ass looking for justification. It's annoying and insulting to people who do like it.

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I know this may be hard to believe, so bear with me: Just because you don't like that doesn't mean it's bad. Unleashed tells you where to go, and simply gives you an obstacle course to get through before reaching your goal. It's simple, it's straightforward, and it works. I far prefer this over being thrown in a playground. For this reason, I dislike Super Mario 64 and other platformers that do this. Let me know where I need to go, and I'll go there; by doing this, you can put all of your attention on avoiding obstacles and not have to worry about where to go. I know this may blow your mind, but people like this.

To add further, they both tend to have their strengths and weaknesses.

Open world "playgrounds" like Mario 64 tend to do away with straightfowardness in favor of giving the player the absolute freedom to go do whatever the hell they want. They can stay in the stage without worrying about being timed, they can go straight for the goal, they can jack around the stage, or they can go for an entirely different goal that wasn't marked out for them initially. Combine that with the number of abilities available for you and you have a dream stage for many people.

The flaws of it, however, are it's lack of direction which also served as a strength. Players who prefer being given an idea where they need to go would have a difficult time wondering what they should be doing, and would spend a lot of time trying to figure out what to do. I'm sure plenty of people had that moment somewhere in Mario 64, myself included. Sandbox games which do this tend to avert this flaw by having a map that points out what your choices are and how to get to them, but aside from that it pretty much tells you to find out on your own how to get the job done which can add to the sense of freedom or break it by baffling the player.

Then there's straightfoward levels. They do away with absolute freedom by giving you a set direction in which you just have to figure out how to get their in one piece, which can vary in difficulty depending on how far you get. Eggmanland is a perfect example, as despite it's many pathways they all lead you to the same location in the end while giving you a great deal of hell for you to avoid while trying to get there.

Like the "playground" example, it's strengths also serve as it's weakness to other players. Those who like being given more choice in their decisions on how to get through one place tend to find it limiting compared to what they could envision the character they're playing as doing. Some games avert this by giving that area tons of ways to complete it. Metal Gear Solid, for example, has many ways you can fool around in a single area with it's many gadgets and weaponry you have to experiment at your disposal: you could simply sneak around regularly, fool around the foes by hiding in a box and laughing at how easy they overlook you, blend in with the environment and then choke your foe as he gets near, or go Rambo by killing every foe around in order to get through. One method I did in Peace Walker was shoot a strike marker at my targets head and signal for an airstrike (no kill like overkill, huh?), and that was just to see if it would work.

Kinda hard to bring in the best of both worlds, but Generations appears to be doing just that at least for City Escape so far. There's a lot more room than there was in Unleashed, even though it was still straight forward. If they could add more abilities for the player to fool around with as they wish, they might have a keeper here. But I guess that's for the next game, huh?

EDIT: I feel like I was just blowing hot air out of my mouth typing this. :lol:

This is why we can't have nice things, Phos. You constantly trumpet the same sentiment against Sonic Unleashed not unlike the last QTE in the final boss, but never back yourself up.

I'm guessing this goes beyond simply being hard to please, and more into blocking for the sake of blocking? Or what?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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EDIT: I feel like I was just blowing hot air out of my mouth typing this. :lol:

Don't worry, CSS. It's the hot air I'd use to relax in a sauna. That was very well said.

The fact of the matter is that Sonic's focus and drive is getting from point-A to point-B, with there being multiple paths and shortcuts of getting there, each with a varying dynamic consequence for the player in terms of scenery and environment, difficulty and ability to traverse the level quickly. Sonic's always been about this, and while there's been some experimentation in the 3rd dimension, that point-A point-B linearity was always there, even in the likes of Sonic Adventure.

I still believe and embrace the notion that the current-age "Modern Sonic" gameplay in its current and developing state is the go-to example of how Sonic should play in 3D, at the very least in terms of concept. The formula provides just about everything necessary for there to be a 3D platformer, while sticking to the philosophy that Sonic games have had since the very beginning. While the quintessential "spinball-physics" are absent, everything else is there. Running fast, platforming, variation in each level, glorious eye candy, bopping music, parkour, grinding and et cetera. With all of this interactivity and immersion into Sonic's world, I can't see SEGA going back to the "Adventure" design, simply because this is the Adventure design, but improved immensely, fully realizing what 3D Sonic should have been from the very start.

In fact, I don't want to call it "Colors-style" or "Unleashed-style" or even "Modern-style," because this is 3D Sonic to me, and to many other people.

I can't dig them up now, but I've seen video playthroughs of Sonic Generations at E3 and have read articles that compare Generations to the likes of Adventure and Adventure 2. Not in a contrasting light, but in a similar vain; to the general public, this modern-era 3D Sonic is pretty much "Adventure Sonic" to them.

In regards to the original topic question, no, I am not tired of the design they chose to go with, because this is now essentially the full realization of 3D Sonic. Even with the seemingly contradictory 2D bits, which manage to add to the dynamics of the overall design, which I absolutely love. It adds more variation and things for Sonic to do! It's just plain fun!

That being said, I still have a special place in my heart (as do most fans around here) for the original Adventure titles, but we have to accept the fact that the initial formula for Sonic's 3rd dimensional escapades hasn't aged well, and had long overdue needed an overhaul. We saw it foreshadowed in Secret Rings and Sonic Rush. We finally got it in Sonic Unleashed. We saw it perfected in Colors, and we're seeing it become perfected again in Generations.

EDIT:

I'm guessing this goes beyond simply being hard to please, and more into blocking for the sake of blocking? Or what?

You know that final QTE where you mash the "X" button 60 times relentlessly? That's about the same manner that he's throwing that tired argument at us.

Edited by Indigo Rush

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Don't worry, CSS. It's the hot air I'd use to relax in a sauna. That was very well said.

Well that makes me feel better then! :)

You know that final QTE where you mash the "X" button 60 times relentlessly? That's about the same manner that he's throwing that tired argument at us.

I guess I'm not too different seeing as how I throw the same argument myself in other subjects regarding the series. I guess it's just the more altruistic aspect of my arguments tend to give it more water.

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This is why we can't have nice things, Phos. You constantly trumpet the same sentiment against Sonic Unleashed not unlike the last QTE in the final boss, but never back yourself up.

In fact, instead of countering this post, I'm going to ask you to defend your point a little better. Give us a paragraph or two, if you must. Be able to justify your opinion, sir. Everything before the chase scene at the end. The 3D platforming section with alternate paths.

Why is it a pallet swap?

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Essentially, there isn't a lot to differentiate them from one another, each level has very little to call its own. Chun-Nan had the wall, but there wasn't like running on it was any different from the streets of Windmill Island or the alleyways in Rooftop Run. The tendency for changes in direction to be handled by boost pads and the like only makes this worse because now the geometry has less influence over how a level progresses.

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Essentially, there isn't a lot to differentiate them from one another, each level has very little to call its own. Chun-Nan had the wall, but there wasn't like running on it was any different from the streets of Windmill Island or the alleyways in Rooftop Run. The tendency for changes in direction to be handled by boost pads and the like only makes this worse because now the geometry has less influence over how a level progresses.

Edited by Indigo Rush

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If you keep ignoring me I'm going to cry.

There's a lot of ground between Mario 64 and Unleashed.

I think I'm coming off as a lot more negative as I mean to be, I don't want to eliminate Unleashed sense of speed, I want that sense of speed with a sense of place.

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The same things basically apply to it. The only bits that are actually different are basically homing attack chains and the boarding bits. The truck is basically the return of the interceptor.

Well Green Hill Zone is exactly the same as Planet Wisp. I mean. All you do it run.

Seriously. If you're gonna use that logic, just use it for the entire past 20 years...

Edited by DarkOverord

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You have control of the tricks you do in Sonic Generations. THE FUCKING TRICKS, MAN! It is not like you have to use them to survive either so there are no QTEs. Wasn't that a huge criticism of Unleashed and Colors? It's gone now. In City Escape, I saw 3 alternate paths in 3d which is funny because the original City Escape was linear as all hell. I didn't even see a boost corridor in City Escape.

Edited by turbojet

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"Will be" in the past tense, as in "Unleashed will still be designed entirely around using the boost".

The context being that even though we can simply NOT use the boost, the game won't simply stop being made entirely around the boost.genius.gif

What would Sonic Classic be without the spin dash? Answer: Extremely infuriating if not downright impossible.

The fact that they made the Boost synominous with sex speaks volumes.

"Using it early and often makes you look like a dope when you have to get it back up."

Edited by turbojet

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A recent run through Green Hill Zone for Modern Sonic was posted in the Generations preview section recently. For the ones that say the 3D was linear, you may want to look at this.

Shows some new stuff and info. A new upper alternate path in the Modern gameplay and a funny little easter egg. Overall good video.

You see that? If you air stomp on the bridge, you get sent to a lower level. Hell, even the 2D sections in Modern Sonic had more paths than the Classic counterpart. We have only seen two levels...scratch that...the first two levels of the game and they improve on openness drastically.

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If I had to define what made each Unleashed level unique, I guess I'd say:

Apotos - Standard opener, no gimmick of course.

Mazuri - Swinging poles and introduction of more alternative paths in 2D gameplay, plus the circular section at the end.

Holoska - Bobsled of course, and introduction of water.

Spagonia - This might seem like a cop-out, but cinematicness. This level was clearly designed to just look really goddamn cool through amazing set-pieces. Also was somewhat of a "half-way point" standard challenge level.

Chun-Nan - Water 2 - Water Harder. Also spinny platforms.

Shamar - Probably one of the most reactionary levels. It never punishes you with death, but this level is chock-full of "one-time opportunity" alternative routes.

Empire City - Large sprawling routes with grind rails.

Adabat - Water 3 - The Revenge Of Water. Aside from that, this stage was all about unique envioronmental hazards that you hadn't faced before.

EggmanLand - Obviously the standard finisher - let's see what you've learned from all of the above.

Now yes, I will certainly agree that few of these "themes" took advantage of the aesthetics of the levels, but they certainly did all have their own personality, even within the fewer unique hazards/gimmicks in comparison to the classics.

Edited by JezMM

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0:00 - 0:40 = Drifting around corners, trying to board towards the ramps, timing the press of the jump button, trying to land on wires, and avoiding robots.

0:40 - 0:50 = Small platforming segment.

More of a homing attack chain

0:50 - 1:15 = Small area to run around in, with robots to attack and red rings to find.

This part just looks so awkward with the modern controls... There's even that bit going into the loop where he just scrapes along the ground in an airborne state waiting to stick to it

1:20 - 2:00 = 2D platforming.

Those swinging bars are from Savanna Citadel, I wonder if they'll actually work this time. The 2D platforming itself still has that colors thing going on, where it looks more befitting of a level from something like Megaman than Sonic.

2:07 - 2:57 = Giant fucking truck. Dodge those saw blades and conserve your boost energy or be roadkill.

Are you guys saying that this is different from the interceptor because it looks different?

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Speed boosters as well as the modern version of springs are guilty of this. In this case, springs at about 0:44 are the culprit. There aren't many examples of it happening in this demo because Sonic actually changes direction on his own once in a while, which I suppose is also an improvement over the original city escape and unleashed.

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This is an upgrade over unleashed,

Got nothing else to say, herpa derp, figure it out by yourself, hurr durr derp. :rolleyes:

EDIT: And if any other video game character has been loyal to their past, it would be Mega Man, and Sonic the Hedgehog. Though he has overcome through many changes, no one, and I mean no one, can deny that there's so many nostalgia in the newer Sonic games. Possibly even more than Mario. And thing is: They actually do it right.

Topic took an interesting derail. If you told me months ago of all stages City Escape would be the counter argument of linearity in 3d sonic I would laugh in your face. Its crazy how one video and a couple impressions changed the game for Unleashed formula.

Indeed. SEGA has proved themselves capable of using the Unleashed formula to make an excellent game.

And, all this amazing stuff we're seeing in Sonic Generations...

I can't help but think, it's just the beginning.

Edited by Tatsumaki

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Topic took an interesting derail. If you told me months ago of all stages City Escape would be the counter argument of linearity in 3d sonic I would laugh in your face. Its crazy how one video and a couple impressions changed the game for Unleashed formula.

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And if any other video game character has been loyal to their past, it would be Mega Man, and Sonic the Hedgehog. Though he has overcome through many changes, no one, and I mean no one, can deny that there's so many nostalgia in the newer Sonic games. Possibly even more than Mario. And thing is: They actually do it right.

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