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SuperStingray

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(Only downside I can see is, without the boost being compulsory how will we ever see incredible moments like running on water again? :()
Sonic didn't need no boost to run on water in the good ol' days.
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Sonic didn't need no boost to run on water in the good ol' days.

Indeed your right, I take back what I said :P

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I think Sonic's top speed, at least in 3D games, should about two-thirds of the maximum boost speed in Unleashed. Speed is definitely Sonic's defining quality, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

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Speed is, of course, very importaint to Sonic character. That's why he was fast in Sonic Adventure, that's why he was fast in Sonic Adventure 2. Most people would agree with me that the Sonic levels in those two games were ace, and would only argue about which of the two were slightly better than the other. His speed addiction didn't become a problem until the horribly flawed Sonic Unleashed.

Just about everything that made previous 3D Sonic games in the past was replaced with an extra needle of crack to the arm vein:

Who needs plaforming? Just hold down a button and the watch pretty graphics fly past.

Who needs actual combat? Just hold down a button and watch the pretty robots blow up.

Who needs good level design? Just hold down a button and watch as the highly-rendered city level, the next highly-rendered city level, and then the NEXT highly-rendered city level fall behind you.

Who needs Sonic Unleashed? Just buy the Sonic Racer "McDonalds" LCD toy and get the same gameplay for a 50th of the cost of an overpriced PS2/Wii/PS3/360 game.

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I think Sonic's top speed, at least in 3D games, should about two-thirds of the maximum boost speed in Unleashed. Speed is definitely Sonic's defining quality, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

I don't think there should be any limit on how fast you go, rather than its focus.

Sonic could go seven times the speed of light if they could make, but as long as I can do something with that speed other than race to the end of the stage, then I'm good.

I don't exactly get what so fun about simply running by pressing the boost button to do so, because Sonic is far more capable of so much more than that. I'm not talking gimmicks here, so don't even try to put that in my face. I'm talking about making the stage your bitch when you play it, because Unleashed has it more like the stages are holding your hand and walking you through the stages, at least until a sharp turn comes where you have to drift, or stages like Empire City and Eggmanland. I'd like to freely be able to jump 40 ft at any angle provided that I do the right techniques to do so without the QTE's. They make the game much worse in that they take any sense of control you have at those points away and it's either you win and proceed or you fail and lose a life. Take that piece of shit out.

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Who needs plaforming? Just hold down a button and the watch pretty graphics fly past.

Who needs actual combat? Just hold down a button and watch the pretty robots blow up.

Who needs good level design? Just hold down a button and watch as the highly-rendered city level, the next highly-rendered city level, and then the NEXT highly-rendered city level fall behind you.

A bit harsh. No?

I can see where some people would be against the speeds generated in Unleashed, but I really liked the challenge it put up. Pushing Sonic through his paces to throw down the perfect run is one of the biggest blasts I’ve had with the franchise in a good while. The boost certainly streamlined the experience, but that was the focus of Sonic’s gameplay in that iteration. If you wanted to stop and fight the bots or jump from ledges, then you should go boot up a Werehog mission or two.

Speed has always defined Sonic and the developers are always looking for ways to push the envelope. We had the Light Speed Dash in SA1, the Epic Spindash of SA2, the Rocket Boost of Heroes, Chaos Control in Shadow, Mach Speed Zones in 06 and the Sonic Boost of Unleashed. Needless to say speed is the most successful and most desirable gimmick of the series.

---Side note---

Hurdling the small steps instead of jumping them just fills your body with joy (seriously, try it).

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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Speed has always defined Sonic and the developers are always looking for ways to push the envelope. We had the Light Speed Dash in SA1, the Epic Spindash of SA2, the Rocket Boost of Heroes, Chaos Control in Shadow, Mach Speed Zones in 06 and the Sonic Boost of Unleashed. Needless to say speed is the most successful and most desirable gimmick of the series.

The Lightspeed dash isn't fast anymore, though. It's faster to run along a line of rings on the ground than use the dash... now the dash is mainly used for opening up different passages through the level while in midair.

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I don't think Sonic is too fast, but rather that he's too fast in the wrong way.

One thing that really allowed Sonic to be both fast and interactive was how the level design let Sonic smoothly blast through levels by having a smooth transition from running, to jumping up ledges, to rolling on a half pipe, or going through a loop. None of these moments forced the player to come to a complete halt if the player could change their pace a bit to easily and quickly cross them. If Sonic is moving to fast all the time, the change in pace will become too abrupt and will make the player feel like their forced to slow down.

It's pace and fluidity that made Sonic fast and allowed the player to go fast. Sonic does need to slow down, but he needs to slow down so he can go fast. Meaning, Sonic's level design needs to combine the ability to move through platform heavy levels quickly and easily.

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(Note that nothing in this post is intended as an offense to those who like speed or make it look like my opinion is the only truth. I hope I avoided wording it that way.)

I like doing things when I play a game. If Sonic's just running, that's not doing anything besides holding the control stick. Speed doesn't require you to actually think; I like using reflexes, problem-solving skills, and intelligence when I play a video game, you know, putting some thought into it. And no, I don't enjoy run-a-thons with an occasional obstacle that requires you to jump, a la Sonic Unleashed (mainly the Wii version, although the 360 version also suffers from this).

I am also concerned with the presentation of speed as it relates to "new customers". Imagine this conversation:

Guy 1: This is Sonic. He's the shizzle!

Guy 2: Cool. What does he do?

Guy 1: He runs.

Guy 2: ...What? That isn't ALL he does, is it?

...Obviously, that's not where every conversation would end up, and my knowledge of mainstream culture is admittedly poor, but I can certainly imagine it.

My favorite Sonic speed is in 2006 when he's the slowest. I don't know if high speed but with plenty to do would be good, since Sonic Team hasn't done it yet. I'd like a Sonic game with slower and tightly controllable running, but to make sure it's still "Sonic", make Sonic more action, with an increased emphasis on platforming and exploration, but also sweet combat moves, awesome gimmicks, and amazing coordination stunts (by "gimmicks" I mean items along the lines of the various things you can interact with in the classic games, like the Marble Zone spike platform switches, Hill Top balances, Wacky Workbench electric floor, Marble Garden turny wheels, Lava Reef platform cycles, etc...). This also might be a good way to draw new people in, since it would be a bit more like an "awesome superhero movie"; I think it would be nice if Sonic were portrayed as a totally awesome, hyper-coordinated guy who does amazing things no human could accomplish with an attitude-y life-of-the-party personality.

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I too do not mean to put anyone's opinion down.

Guy 1: This is Sonic. He's the shizzle!

Guy 2: Cool. What does he do?

Guy 1: He runs.

Guy 2: ...What? That isn't ALL he does, is it?

...Obviously, that's not where every conversation would end up, and my knowledge of mainstream culture is admittedly poor, but I can certainly imagine it.

It actually seems that if you were to phrase the two words a little differently, the outcome would have been quite different.

Guy 1: This is Sonic. He's the shizzle!

Guy 2: Cool. What does he do?

Guy 1: He's fast.

Guy 2: Sounds a lot more fun than Mario, that's for sure.

I think that without speed, Sonic would have nothing going for him. It might be a good platforming game, but we already have those.

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I would rather have speed than platforming, but that's just me n__n. I don't like running really fast to then have to suddenly stop and go really slow T__T I like homing attacking because I'm still going fast. I think that it doesn't help that Sonic tends to be a bit skiddy in some games and that annoys the hell out of me when I'm just walking around, let alone platforming.

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Guy 1: This is Sonic. He's the shizzle!

Guy 2: Cool. What does he do?

Guy 1: He's fast.

Guy 2: Sounds a lot more fun than Mario, that's for sure.

Heh, it's true that would probably make a difference. "He's fast" also creates more of an impression like I described in the last paragraph, instead of just running and not doing anything else.

...Although I don't think most people would instantly declare it to sound better than Mario. :P I grew up with Mario, and didn't get into Sonic until much later, which probably contributes to my distaste for speed.

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*sigh* I remember a time when people complained that Sonic couldn’t kill enemies fast enough. Apparently now being overpowered is too much.

Still, I know there are a lot of things that Sega can do with the speed that would make it more available to everyone. A lot of people mentioned a revamp of the platforming system to maximize Sonic’s athleticism, I like that idea but I say it’s in the combat. A free fighting system that keeps Sonic moving would be great IMO. Less homing attacks, more aero chasers/Interceptors. Personally, I’d like to see something along the lines of several of the Spiderman games, where combat isn’t restricted t the horizontal plane and the hero can really use his speed to inflict some nasty combos.

I’m actually quite shocked that we haven’t seen a spinball variant to the homing attack yet. It writes itself.

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Sonic topped out way too slow in SA2. I'm not advocating slowing Sonic down by cutting his numeric top speed. It's mostly a matter of altering the level design philosophy so there's actually stuff to do in them. It felt like you were mostly just along for the ride in Unleashed.

I imagine having more things to do in a level would only serve to help matters. It would be nice to have stuff to look for and find and not be pushed along.

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...Although I don't think most people would instantly declare it to sound better than Mario. :P I grew up with Mario, and didn't get into Sonic until much later, which probably contributes to my distaste for speed.

I guess they wouldn't say that it is better than Mario. But if they're Nintendo fanboys and know everything about Mario, and know how Sonic the Hedgehog beat Mario out early on, then maybe they'd be willing to try a Sonic game, because the fact that it was more popular than Mario has to count for something. (Of course, they might not want to try because they're a Nintendo fanboy, but...).

This is actually how I started liking Sonic. I was into Mario; someone brought up the topic of Sonic the Hedgehog; I decided to try the games; I was hooked.

Of course, the fact that Sonic was a lot faster than Mario helped influence my desire to try playing Sonic. If I heard there was another platformer better than Mario (that had better level design) but wasn't much different in terms of gameplay at all, then I think I'd stick with Mario.

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While platforming is important, speed is also vital. Speed seperates Sonic from normal platformers, platforming seperates Sonic from normal racers. I think Unleashed did an amazing, nearly perfect, job of balancing this.

I thought Unleashed's speed was perfect. There was never a moment where the game FORCED you to be fast when you didn't absoloutely need to be fast. Yes it still had zippers and automated sections but they never flung you towards death. Anyone who moans about trial and error shouldn't have been using the boost so much on a level they aren't familiar with. You get so much of the boost I see it as a cinematic fun thing for certain areas for beginner players, and a time attack tool for expert players.

^^^ THIS, thank you! Even the Sonic CD manuel said to take it SLOW on levels until you get used to their layout. I'm glad you agree that, when Sonic's going fast, levels will be about trial and error! (the only time you were forced to go fast was when running on water, fyi :))

Edited by BlazingTales
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I too do not mean to put anyone's opinion down.

It actually seems that if you were to phrase the two words a little differently, the outcome would have been quite different.

Guy 1: This is Sonic. He's the shizzle!

Guy 2: Cool. What does he do?

Guy 1: He's fast.

Guy 2: Sounds a lot more fun than Mario, that's for sure.

I think that without speed, Sonic would have nothing going for him. It might be a good platforming game, but we already have those.

It worked back in the day, I know that.

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If you wanted to stop and fight the bots or jump from ledges, then you should go boot up a Werehog mission or two.
The type of platforming the Werehog does isn't interchangeable with the kind Sonic really should be doing.
Speed has always defined Sonic and the developers are always looking for ways to push the envelope. We had the Light Speed Dash in SA1,
Took forever to charge, it's more of a "blue key" kind of thing. If you have the light speed dash, you can get past this bit no problem, without it, you can't
the Epic Spindash of SA2,
Be careful you don't let off the button too quickly, or else you get the worthless somersault
the Rocket Boost of Heroes, Chaos Control in Shadow,
Keep in mind, you're only watching Chaos Control, you aren't actually doing anything.
Mach Speed Zones in 06
To put it quit simply, those sucked.
and the Sonic Boost of Unleashed. Needless to say speed is the most successful and most desirable gimmick of the series.

---Side note---

Hurdling the small steps instead of jumping them just fills your body with joy (seriously, try it).

Those suck to. It's just a case of "remember to press jump because the game says so". And the only reason why a short hop is better is that jumping any higher causes Sonic to slow down massively for some reason. Oh right, the air boost would be useless if it didn't happen.

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I think that without speed, Sonic would have nothing going for him. It might be a good platforming game, but we already have those.
I don't really think that's really the case. Mario, in the older titles was actually considerably fast as well in old games just by holding down the B button. The difference is that Sonic's speed was marketed. While speed is an important part of the series, it isn't so much what I find enjoyable but rather the uses of it.

Be careful you don't let off the button too quickly, or else you get the worthless somersault
So don't let go of the button early. The point of the spindash is to hold down the button as he revs up. :P
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Who needs plaforming? Just hold down a button and the watch pretty graphics fly past.

Who needs actual combat? Just hold down a button and watch the pretty robots blow up.

Who needs good level design? Just hold down a button and watch as the highly-rendered city level, the next highly-rendered city level, and then the NEXT highly-rendered city level fall behind you.

Platforming - Seriously, even the first level's platforming can't be bypassed by just holding down the boost button (and I mean seriously, the FIRST level, the tutorial one). Way to overexaggerate. I'd love to see you get through the platforming of later stages by just holding X and doing it sucessfully first time.

Combat - The robots blowing up you refer to are just a nice set-piece. The rest of the time the combat is no different to previous Sonic games. In fact, in later stages, the robots with electrified shields will punish you for simply trying to boost through them.

And level design... is made up of the previous two elements combined with flashy cinematic things such as loops. I admit, I'd like the loops to lose their automation, even if the only result is that you can jump off and kill yourself half way through. But other than that... well I've already covered platforming and combat.

Seriously, there's not liking the boost and then there's outright lying.

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I don't think that Sonic is too fast in Unleashed really, if you don't want him to be fast then don't level him up. However with the leveling you are going to be getting used to him getting faster as you level up, it's not like he goes from being slow to suddenly really fast. I don't like playing as Sonic on Jez's file because he all maxed out so is the fastest he can be. But that's just because I'm not used to it, with time I'd get used to it.

I think that the speed of Sonic in Unleashed is awesome and just what it should be. It makes you feel like you're really going as fast as Sonic should have been running all along.

Plus you don't HAVE to boost lol no ones making you (except on the water of course lol)

Edited by Mollfie
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I think that the speed of Sonic in Unleashed is awesome and just what it should be. It makes you feel like you're really going as fast as Sonic should have been running all along.

Yes, but why should he be limited to just running fast? Why can he have a bit more interaction with the environment instead of watching it blaze past him like a blur? We know he's the fastest thing alive, but that doesn't mean running is the only thing he is capable of. There are tons of stuff he could be doing while running fast, and I feel Unleashed did not deliever that at all.

That also doesn't mean throw in gimmicks that oppose the above. The werehog is fun (at times even more fun than regular Sonic), he interacts with the environment in ways that regular Sonic should be doing, but at the same time he becomes road block'd by enemies that he has to defeat to move on.

Sonic should be doing that, except for being blocked off by enemies in small rooms. If he's going to be road blocked by a laser wall or something, at least have it in a room big enough to where you don't feel claustophobic or if the room is claustophobic in feel have it to where you can still interact enough to have a good time. That way, those who enjoy the speed can enjoy running around, those who enjoy interaction and strategy can do as they please, and those who want to go batshit crazy on the levels can do so as well (but with extreme caution)...

Plus you don't HAVE to boost lol no ones making you (except on the water of course lol)

Yes, you do actually. There are plenty of instances where if you don't boost you're more than likely to lose a life or be unable to progress through a stage.

Without boosting you're unable to break through any breakable walls that are your only ticket to proceed, keep enemies off your ass while they may chase you, plow through a wall of enemies that you can't get through without boosting through them like a bowling ball, or use the Egg Fighters to send them flying towards the Aero Chaser to keep them from frying or nuking you while you're running through the stage.

That, AND the fact that it's required to speed over the water in certain courses, which can really save your life should you accidentally fall into it while going on your merry way.

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The type of platforming the Werehog does isn't interchangeable with the kind Sonic really should be doing.

Should is subjective. On that note, I severely doubt anyone would complain if the main draw of Unleashed would have been a Knuckles skin in place of the Werehog. Unleashed simply separated the slower parts of the game to avoid bogging down the Hedgehog half. To their credit, a good deal of us think they did a fantastic job.

Took forever to charge, it's more of a "blue key" kind of thing. If you have the light speed dash, you can get past this bit no problem, without it, you can't

It still introduced an action that pushed an element of speed for the console platformer. On top of the dash, the Light Speed Attack was also introduced that (at the time) proved to be the speed standard of the series pre-Chaos Control.

Be careful you don't let off the button too quickly, or else you get the worthless somersault

The spindash was essential to clocking record times when headed downhill. It was well worth the risk of an occasional accidental somersault IMO.

Keep in mind, you're only watching Chaos Control, you aren't actually doing anything.

But they choose to speed up time rather than slow it down. They took a slow technique from Sonic Heroes and turned it into a speed based move. Controlling it or not doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things, its still a basic move you are able to activate to speed up gameplay.

To put it quit simply, those sucked.

I liked the Mach Speed Zones. Once you’ve got the hang of them, they’re actually a lot of fun.

Those suck to. It's just a case of "remember to press jump because the game says so". And the only reason why a short hop is better is that jumping any higher causes Sonic to slow down massively for some reason. Oh right, the air boost would be useless if it didn't happen.

The Unleashed stages brought a renewed emphasis on speed. They didn’t put anymore platforming into the fold than what was necessary. Still, calling the game strait forward with minimal jumps and all boost doesn’t add up. You have to manage a ton of hazardous corners, quick-step along treacherous paths and the addition of the Eggman laughing bumpers (among other things) make it a well rounded out experience.

It’s just a speed-runners dream, which is a trait I think all Sonic games should share.

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Unleashed simply separated the slower parts of the game to avoid bogging down the Hedgehog half.
I think that's really where the problem lies. By diffusing Sonic's gameplay rather than compromising it, it really broke up the flow. I loved Unleashed, but by breaking up most of the speed from most of the platforming, it loses that Sonic essence. I don't know about you, but I don't order a sandwich to eat the bread and the contents separately.

I liked the Mach Speed Zones. Once you’ve got the hang of them, they’re actually a lot of fun.
IF you can get the hang of them. I'm sorry, but those controls were about Superman 64 caliber.
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On that note, I severely doubt anyone would complain if the main draw of Unleashed would have been a Knuckles skin in place of the Werehog.
I would. Knuckles doesn't stretch, WereSonic can't glide or climb freely, and he's still too slow and clunky.

Unleashed simply separated the slower parts of the game to avoid bogging down the Hedgehog half. To their credit, a good deal of us think they did a fantastic job.
If these "slower parts" shouldn't be part of Sonic's gameplay, why are they in the game at all?
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