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SuperStingray

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I don't even like playing as Knuckles in Sonic 3K (his versions of the levels aren't as good)

But they choose to speed up time rather than slow it down. They took a slow technique from Sonic Heroes and turned it into a speed based move. Controlling it or not doesn
Edited by Phos
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I played the PS2 version of Unleashed and I don't think the levels are as straight forward as everyone says. The early levels maybe but even they have plenty of action and shortcuts. They don't punish you as much if you just run forward, ignoring enemies, obstacles and alternate paths during the early levels. They don't really force you to do much but if you didn't want to do anything you could just stare at a blank screen. There is actually a lot of things to do in the early levels if you take the right paths which actually take skill to get to and remain on. If you take the boring path, it will only lead you to other boring paths but if you take the way that requires a bit of skill to get to then it will lead to other pathways, obstacles, enemies ect.

The later levels are a lot better with several alternate pathways that provide several obstacles, enemies, higher up platforms and hazards. Not sure how much of it counts as platforming but many of the paths require getting to higher areas and particularly in the later levels you always have to remain alert. Chu-Nan, Shamar and Adabat are very good at this. Eggmanland is the hardest day levels but it has so many bottomless pits. Not only are the alternate paths more fun but they are also faster, you need to take them to get a S rank which is important in the Wii/PS2 version in that is how you get medals and you need medals to get into the extra doors of the Gaia Gates to solve the puzzles to get more levels to get more medals to get into more doors of the Gaia Gates......

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Yes, you do actually.

No you don't. I've beaten every level in Unleashed without boosting (except water as mentioned) so I can vouch for it. You can't beat the aero chasers but you can get past them. You can destroy all the breakable walls with a quick-spin on the floor or a ground stomp from the air. You can get through every group of regular enemies (such as near the start of Mazuri Savannah Citadel Day Act 1) with homing attacks - in fact the enemies designed for boosting are usually the most timid and easy to dispatch - and as said, I've got through every robot chase encounter without boosting.

The only bits you need to boost on is the water. You could say you need to for the Aero Chasers to defeat them, but that's a particular gimmick that has been introduced specifically for the boost. It's not replacing any old aspect of non-boost Sonic design. Plus I find it a fun bonus challenge to just dodge their attacks without boosting or harming them.

Seriously, try playing through the stages without touching the boost button except on water. It's a pretty refreshing and relaxed way to play the game, even if it isn't as fast. I love that you have this choice.

Edited by JezMM
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So why don't the water running segments count?

And without boosting, you are very limited as to where you can go. For example, you will have to follow the bottom path pretty much the whole way through Windmill Island, and Savannah Citadel. Trying to do this during the Aero Chaser bits will lead to you being hit randomly from nowhere (This game has pretty crappy hit detection, to be honest). The Interceptor will do nothing but his sweeping punch, which you have to either boost away from or jump with very tight timing to get around. And you might also land on a bomb, because you can't change lanes in mid air for no adequately explained reason.

You're fighting the game by not boosting.

It's just a speed-runners dream, which is a trait I think all Sonic games should share.

Sonic CD is a speedrunner's dream. There are so many options for planning your paths that you could have gotten this game when it came out and still be perfecting your runs.

Edited by Phos
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why should he be limited to just running fast? Why can he have a bit more interaction with the environment instead of watching it blaze past him like a blur? We know he's the fastest thing alive, but that doesn't mean running is the only thing he is capable of.

Did you get to the additional Acts?

While it's true that Sonic does focus on running fast in the main stages (which I can understan as running always been his biggest action), it isn't the only thing that Unleashed had to offer. Werehog aside, some Acts were designed with pretty minimal running.

Spagonia Act 2-2 still has the Speed empasis intact, running is the least of its focal points. Aerial speed and run and jump platforming is much more dominate.

Spagonia Act 3 doesn't concentrate on running or even moving fast at all. The emphasis here is basic platforming and exploration to find the Chao. And I found it to be MUCH better than any Treasure Hunting stage out there, lol.

Hmm, this is seeming more like another Unleashed topic than a Speed topic. Oh well, awesome game deserves more attention anyway. :P

Edited by Syke
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The additional acts are also not interchangeable with the kind of platforming Sonic should be doing. They remind me more of what I'd expect from a Megaman game... only with worse controls.

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^ the point is that you don't have to boost to complete the level except for on water. As has been stated several times. I'm not telling anyone not to boost, I'm just saying that you don't have to. If you don't like how fast Sonic is going, don't boost!

lol as for changing direction when you've jumped...can anyone do that in real life? Sonic games do try to keep pretty realistic physics.

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^ the point is that you don't have to boost to complete the level except for on water. As has been stated several times. I'm not telling anyone not to boost, I'm just saying that you don't have to. If you don't like how fast Sonic is going, don't boost!
The blandness of the level design makes that pretty much the only thing you can do.

lol as for changing direction when you've jumped...can anyone do that in real life? Sonic games do try to keep pretty realistic physics.

Sonic accelerated faster in the air than on the ground in the old games. It's better that way.

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So why don't the water running segments count?

And without boosting, you are very limited as to where you can go. For example, you will have to follow the bottom path pretty much the whole way through Windmill Island, and Savannah Citadel. Trying to do this during the Aero Chaser bits will lead to you being hit randomly from nowhere (This game has pretty crappy hit detection, to be honest). The Interceptor will do nothing but his sweeping punch, which you have to either boost away from or jump with very tight timing to get around. And you might also land on a bomb, because you can't change lanes in mid air for no adequately explained reason.

You're fighting the game by not boosting.

Well, I was essentially fighting fire with water there rather than making a compromise. Basically they were argueing as if you HAVE to boost all the way through, so I argued back with the point that with the exception of the water bits (I'm not saying they "don't count", I'm just saying they're an exception), the rest of the game is totally completeable without boosting.

The point I guess I forgot to make clear from this arguement, was to prove that complaints that you need to boost throughout the whole game are completely ungrounded, because you don't.

I'm pretty sure the developer's intention is that you should boost to do all those things you mentioned, but they are optional. You don't HAVE to do them.

My main gripe was the people complaining that you can just zip past all the platforming sections by boosting when you literally just can't do that. It's an outright lie. In fact, it's for this reason people complain about trial and error because for some reason that group of people think you SHOULD be able to just hold boost down and win. So my overall point is that:

Not boosting is there for exploration.

Boosting in moderation is there for regular playthroughs.

Boosting all the way through is for expert speedruns.

That's how I think the boost is meant to be interpreted, and all I can really say to those who believe the boost either skips things OR those who believe the boost makes the game too hard.

I guess for people to understand this they should actually make that clear in the tutorial stage or something...

Just to clarify though Phos, this isn't an arguement towards you, I know already you don't care for the boost and want your pinball physics back in Sonic and that's fine, the only reason this is a response to you is because you asked, lol.

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In my opinion, speed has become too important lately.

I think speed is what's killing the series for me. I liked Sonic for his platforming in the original Sonic trilogy.

His speed was perfect in Sonic Adventure. He was still able to focus on the platforming while going fast when it called for it. And if I needed to speed up, the spindash was the easiest to activate in this game. Press B right after doing it to run instead of roll. I think Sonic controlled the best here, in the games after, he's just too stiff, and the game even puts you on rails, so you can't even turn some times.

Sonic Rush, is just, really dull to me, because the level just passes you by even if you don't use the boost. The same thing goes for Sonic Unleashed.

I think the games should focus more on the platforming than the "move really really fast" parts. That's not to say "move really really fast" can be taken out of the game at all. Sonic got chased by boulders and trucks and dinosaurs and had to move fast. What I think they should do, is make things like Sonic Adventure, and throw something like the Sonic 06 speed zones into the game, But first they need to vastly improve on the idea ...say, make it so you don't die if you bump into something, give better controlling, turning, the ability to stop, basicly make the speed zones into a long stretch of a run where it controles just like the other parts of the game would, but Sonic goes faster here kinda thing?

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You can destroy all the breakable walls with a quick-spin on the floor or a ground stomp from the air. You can get through every group of regular enemies (such as near the start of Mazuri Savannah Citadel Day Act 1) with homing attacks - in fact the enemies designed for boosting are usually the most timid and easy to dispatch - and as said, I've got through every robot chase encounter without boosting.

Now wouldn't all that slow you down, a trait which folks nowadays seem to absolutely despise? For them to keep there speed and be happy, they would need to boost, and at certain points in the game it becomes necessary to do.

The only bits you need to boost on is the water.

Then you need to boost. There's no way around that, especially with stages such as Chun-nan and Holoska where it's suicide not to boost on the water parts.

You could say you need to for the Aero Chasers to defeat them, but that's a particular gimmick that has been introduced specifically for the boost. It's not replacing any old aspect of non-boost Sonic design. Plus I find it a fun bonus challenge to just dodge their attacks without boosting or harming them.

The only problem with that is the Egg Fighters that are mainly the ones in the way while the Chasers are chasing you. You can bank left and right if you want, but should there be a moment where this is impossible where Egg Fighters block all three sides to keep you from quick steping or should two Chasers fire their lasers and the one that doesn't is infront of an Egg fighter in your way that kinda spells trouble.

While you could simply just homing attack the Egg Fighter out of the way, you still have to deal with the Chasers until they take off. And since Unleashed has a habit of suddenly spiking its difficulty curve at more points than others, they don't make it easy for you to quick step out of the way.

Seriously, try playing through the stages without touching the boost button except on water. It's a pretty refreshing and relaxed way to play the game, even if it isn't as fast. I love that you have this choice.

It's a pain...

Take the Dark Gaia boss as an example, there's a time limit that shortens as you knock out each of his eyes.

If you don't boost, Dark Gaia will blast the Gaia Colossus, and you lose a life, and that's not even counting the obstacles Dark Gaia sends at you to keep you at bay before scoring a Kamehameha on the Colossus. You could get past those without a scratch on you and still not make it before the blast.

Did you get to the additional Acts?

While it's true that Sonic does focus on running fast in the main stages (which I can understan as running always been his biggest action), it isn't the only thing that Unleashed had to offer. Werehog aside, some Acts were designed with pretty minimal running.

Spagonia Act 2-2 still has the Speed empasis intact, running is the least of its focal points. Aerial speed and run and jump platforming is much more dominate.

Spagonia Act 3 doesn't concentrate on running or even moving fast at all. The emphasis here is basic platforming and exploration to find the Chao. And I found it to be MUCH better than any Treasure Hunting stage out there, lol.

Hmm, this is seeming more like another Unleashed topic than a Speed topic. Oh well, awesome game deserves more attention anyway. :P

All the additional acts are the most abysmal parts of the game. That's not anywhere close to the potential Sonic is far more capable of.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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And without boosting, you are very limited as to where you can go. For example, you will have to follow the bottom path pretty much the whole way through Windmill Island, and Savannah Citadel. Trying to do this during the Aero Chaser bits will lead to you being hit randomly from nowhere (This game has pretty crappy hit detection, to be honest). The Interceptor will do nothing but his sweeping punch, which you have to either boost away from or jump with very tight timing to get around. And you might also land on a bomb, because you can't change lanes in mid air for no adequately explained reason.

You're fighting the game by not boosting.

And there are areas of the classic games you can't reach/are more difficult if you don't use certain strengths of Sonic's.

No game allows you to play it exactly the way you want it too. That's a basic fact.

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Now wouldn't all that slow you down, a trait which folks nowadays seem to absolutely despise? For them to keep there speed and be happy, they would need to boost, and at certain points in the game it becomes necessary to do.

Then you need to boost. There's no way around that, especially with stages such as Chun-nan and Holoska where it's suicide not to boost on the water parts.

The only problem with that is the Egg Fighters that are mainly the ones in the way while the Chasers are chasing you. You can bank left and right if you want, but should there be a moment where this is impossible where Egg Fighters block all three sides to keep you from quick steping or should two Chasers fire their lasers and the one that doesn't is infront of an Egg fighter in your way that kinda spells trouble.

While you could simply just homing attack the Egg Fighter out of the way, you still have to deal with the Chasers until they take off. And since Unleashed has a habit of suddenly spiking its difficulty curve at more points than others, they don't make it easy for you to quick step out of the way.

It's a pain...

Take the Dark Gaia boss as an example, there's a time limit that shortens as you knock out each of his eyes.

If you don't boost, Dark Gaia will blast the Gaia Colossus, and you lose a life, and that's not even counting the obstacles Dark Gaia sends at you to keep you at bay before scoring a Kamehameha on the Colossus. You could get past those without a scratch on you and still not make it before the blast.

As said already in my previous post, I was responding to your extreme with the opposite extreme. I'm not saying you can successfully complete the game without boost, I'm saying you're overexaggerating when you say you absoloutely need to, because you don't, it's only required for certain obstacles. Just as jumping is only required for avoiding hazards and reaching higher areas.

I'll repeat the main point of my last post:

Not boosting is there for exploration.

Boosting in moderation is there for regular playthroughs.

Boosting all the way through is for expert speedruns.

The game at no point encourages you to do anything other than the middle one. If you find yourself boosting through EVERYTHING that's your choice and if that means you skip things, or alternatively, run into hazards all the time then it means you shouldn't be using the boost there.

I boost tons nowadays because I know the levels, but I certainly didn't do that the first time because I knew that would mean I wouldn't see obstacles coming.

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All the additional acts are the most abysmal parts of the game. That's not anywhere close to the potential Sonic is far more capable of.

What? A vague and opinionated statement? Way to buzzkill the conversation. Looks like I'll just have to talk about the rest of your post then. ;)

It's a pain...

Take the Dark Gaia boss as an example, there's a time limit that shortens as you knock out each of his eyes.

If you don't boost, Dark Gaia will blast the Gaia Colossus, and you lose a life, and that's not even counting the obstacles Dark Gaia sends at you to keep you at bay before scoring a Kamehameha on the Colossus. You could get past those without a scratch on you and still not make it before the blast.

Pretty bad example you got there.

First of all, That only happens ONCE in the entire game. So using that as an "example" of why taking time

through all the levels is "a pain" doesn't hold much water. Second, it was set up as a critical moment in the game, so not being able to progress leisurely is pretty obvious in that scenario. It's like those cliche moments where the place is about to blow up and you have escape as quickly as possble.

And I never found it hard to avoid Aero Chasers when not boosting. Actually, I found it easier (especially in the Wii version). When boosting, I'm multi-tasking between taking the Aero Chaser's down, keeping up my speed, and avoiding them. If I'm not boosting, then I'm clearly not trying to keep up my speed or take them down, so that leaves just avoiding them. It's a breeze that way.

The Interceptor however is indeed "a pain" to go through without boosting. You'll get your butt punched constantly. :(

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As said I've played through every level without boosting and the interceptor never tried to punch me once. I think you have to get hit by a bomb to get pushed back that far or something. D=

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What? A vague and opinionated statement? Way to buzzkill the conversation.

The extra acts remind me of Megaman, a game that relies solely on the challenge to keep the player engaged. The major problem is that they have pits, but what keeps it from being any variety of fun is that Sonic moves much faster than Megaman, resulting in the platforms that you are aiming for usually being off screen, essentially making it a stream of button presses for which you must have the order and timing for memorized.

And there are areas of the classic games you can't reach/are more difficult if you don't use certain strengths of Sonic's.

No game allows you to play it exactly the way you want it too. That's a basic fact.

The difference is that those abilities are actually fun and make up the much of the Sonic formula, and by that I mean the one that actually works.

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The extra acts remind me of Megaman, a game that relies solely on the challenge to keep the player engaged. The major problem is that they have pits, but what keeps it from being any variety of fun is that Sonic moves much faster than Megaman, resulting in the platforms that you are aiming for usually being off screen, essentially making it a stream of button presses for which you must have the order and timing for memorized.

I really think it's only the "X-2" challenges that rely overly on challenge. Sure, some of the new ones are hit and miss, but ironically enough, the ones with heavy pits are actually my favorites (Spagonia Act 5; Holoska Act 5.) I don't really think the pits are the issue so much as the application of them. The problem with most pits in Sonic games is that they can discourage exploration (when available) or cause cheap deaths, but they aren't an issue when you know they're there and can easily avert them. Edited by A Ham Sandwich
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I'm not saying you can successfully complete the game without boost,

:huh:

I've beaten every level in Unleashed without boosting (except water as mentioned) so I can vouch for it.

That's not what you told me at first.

I'm saying you're overexaggerating when you say you absoloutely need to, because you don't, it's only required for certain obstacles. Just as jumping is only required for avoiding hazards and reaching higher areas.

I'm not overexaggerating, I'm being specific with points in the game that occur as often as folks thinks. If you want exaggeration I can glady show you just that. But there was nothing in what I said where you absolutely needed to boost except at certain parts of the game.

I'll repeat the main point of my last post:

The game at no point encourages you to do anything other than the middle one. If you find yourself boosting through EVERYTHING that's your choice and if that means you skip things, or alternatively, run into hazards all the time then it means you shouldn't be using the boost there.

Okay, now you're the one exaggerating, because nowhere in any of my post did I say I find points where I need to boost through everything or running into hazards.

What? A vague and opinionated statement? Way to buzzkill the conversation. Looks like I'll just have to talk about the rest of your post then. ;)

Actually, looking back on my previous post, what you said and what I said were two different things. You're talking about levels, I'm talking about the abilities to use to make the level your playground instead of a racetrack.

So you went off on something different than me.

Pretty bad example you got there.

I'll give you that one...but now let me pick something out on you: how is that one of the additional acts? I thought you were refering to acts that are optional to play through like Apotos Daytime act 3, not levels required to beat the game.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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:huh:

That's not what you told me at first.

I'm not overexaggerating, I'm being specific with points in the game that occur as often as folks thinks. If you want exaggeration I can glady show you just that. But there was nothing in what I said where you absolutely needed to boost except at certain parts of the game.

Okay, now you're the one exaggerating, because nowhere in any of my post did I say I find points where I need to boost through everything or running into hazards.

Ah, these are simple misunderstandings.

My first two quotes there, well... I can't quite remember but I think the first one EITHER referred to the second one (as in, you need it, but only on water), OR referred to the fact that you DO need to boost to achieve 100%.

As for the second bit you quoted there, that was more a general rant aimed at lots of people's views on the boost. The only thought I have as to directing it to you was my memory must have just been crappy and mixed you up with the people who did claim that then. =\

The result is that I'm a bit confused on what it is you dislike about the boost so I'm not sure what to say since my previous post was pretty much my entire thoughts on the matter of boosting, lol.

Edited by JezMM
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The extra acts remind me of Megaman, a game that relies solely on the challenge to keep the player engaged. The major problem is that they have pits, but what keeps it from being any variety of fun is that Sonic moves much faster than Megaman, resulting in the platforms that you are aiming for usually being off screen, essentially making it a stream of button presses for which you must have the order and timing for memorized.

I'll agree with the Megaman comparison, but I'd beg to differ about them not being fun because they were faster. The speed factor was the main draw for me actually. Since Sonic lacks Megaman's combat, the quick reflex inducing play sorta provided as the replacement hook. I'd disagree with the memorizing part as well, very few required that kind of innate concentration to me. That water running one in the Chun-nan Adventure Pack was one of them. Don't think I'll be playing that again now that I've S ranked it.

Actually, looking back on my previous post, what you said and what I said were two different things. You're talking about levels, I'm talking about the abilities to use to make the level your playground instead of a racetrack.

So you went off on something different than me.

Ahh, okay then. When you said something like "Sonic should be able to do more than run and grind a rail" I thought you were talking about the level design. My mistake.

I'll give you that one...but now let me pick something out on you: how is that one of the additional acts? I thought you were refering to acts that are optional to play through like Apotos Daytime act 3, not levels required to beat the game.

I wasn't discussing the additional acts thing I brought up in that post. That was just me intruding upon the conversation you and Jez were having, more or less.

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I wasn't discussing the additional acts thing I brought up in that post. That was just me intruding upon the conversation you and Jez were having, more or less.

Not trying to be mean, but if you're going to talk about something, it's best to stick to that subject. I'm not saying don't intrude, but if you're going to call my response on the additional acts vague it's best to criticize THAT part before you talk on to something else. It not a good thing to just leave a blank space like that.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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