Classic Gameplay - What needs to be Fixed

[goku262002]

Quoted ICEknight from Retro:

Just thought it would be a good idea to make a topic where the guys at SEGA who usually lurk in here can take a quick look at the (few?) complaints people are making after having tried the demo. This way, there will be a place to focus on the stuff that feels off or unbalanced as well as their possible fixes. Also, this way the megathread can be spared the continuous mentions of the same flaws over and over again.

From what I've read, there's some problems with rolling physics, spindash strength and the jump angle in certain slopes. Feel free to post as many examples with extensive details as you can, so SEGA can be kept well informed about them and hopefully polish this engine a little more before the game gets released.

Seems like a good idea. So feel free to post anything you find SSMB, For the good of generations.

EDIT: This goes without saying but just in case, try to provide proof even if its a grainy screenshot or video.

Edited June 23, 2011 by goku262002

[Scott]

It's fun, though from my four or five play throughs, it seemed kinda off, like the way you do everything, jump, spindash, sonic spin is a tad stiff, not to mention, Sonic can't really jump as high, I then played Sonic 4 after it and Sonic 4's physics felt more like the originals to me, but that could be just my opinion, and uncurling in this...I didn't see why it should be here :/ It does more bad than good!

But if I sound like I prefer Sonic 4 over this, forget it, it was a great experience, it's built up my hype and I am more than excited and eager to try the rest of the game, still day 1 purchase for me.

Shame we didn't get to try the Modern version of Green Hills, but either way, thank you SEGA <3

[i don't like pie]

seems like the same thing the was at sonic boom

[Carbo]

Sonic is able to activate a spin-dash mid turn and I frequently lock myself in a position that would normally imply he'd spindash out into a 3D field. He obviously doesn't but it's annoying since I have no idea where Sonic will head off to after I let go.

Spindash is ridiculously overpowered. Tone it down or get rid of the hot key.

Rolling, in contrast, is atrocious. There's absolutely no reason to use it. Give it momentum.

S-curve pipes should not put Sonic at top speeds. This also causes them to fully work inverse, and considering there are two of them at the beginning of the level that immediately succeed each other, you'll have wasted precious amounts of time if you accidentally go back through it.

Sonic's aerial mobility is pretty bad. He's heavy and chaining enemy hits is hard and dumb.

Sonic's speed shoes are under powered, and they're placed where they're not needed.

There are way too many scripted segments where you lose control of Sonic, even in moments where they shouldn't be. Horizontal springs leading into quarter circle curves are the biggest offenders, and at the segment where it shoots you up onto the swinging lift, it automatically positions you onto that lift, but most annoying of all it gives you full control back a split second before you land, expecting you to navigate onto it.

[Detective Shadzter]

If you want solid evidence of ramps being scripted, go to the platform in the cave area in-between the two swinging platforms, then jump around the edge of either side and you should find yourself get a sudden boost high into the air.

[Eternal EX]

The jump. Fuck you sega for making C sonic jump like shit. This is not COD where it has to be realistic and sonic barely jumps. Fuck. His jump is heavier than a fucking snorlax after lunch. It's like Sega purposely did that just to piss Classic fans off.

[Scar]

The jump. Fuck you sega for making C sonic jump like shit. This is not COD where it has to be realistic and sonic barely jumps. Fuck. His jump is heavier than a fucking snorlax after lunch. It's like Sega purposely did that just to piss Classic fans off.

Easy there, its not that heavy.

[MugiMikey]

Sonic felt sort of stiff, but what stuck out to me the most was the spindash.

Way too overpowered.

[thatguyfrom03]

Not to backseat mod, but if Sega does read this can we at least be professional about it? No" f*** you" or "this element is stupid", just constructive criticism. Please?

[Jimbo]

I fell through the corkscrew part twice. Collision on them seems to be a little bit off. Other than that, the only other problem I saw was the speed shoes and how it didn't feel that they increased my speed (the simple spin dash was as fast as it was with speed shoes, without them.)

[Scar]

Apparently its an older build according to someone on GAF who noticed that it played worse than the Sonic Boom build. I'll be the judge of that come SoS

[crush40rocks]

There are way too many scripted segments

This. The number of scripted segments in a Classic Sonic physics engine is supposed to be absolutely zero.

[Blue Blood]

I don't mind some scripted events. You know, scripted spring here and an automatic S tunnel there, but everything? Everything is scripted. All the ramps, even! It really puts a terrible dampener on the gameplay, and I'd rather they fixed that than rolling.

And now on to rolling. You can't continuously roll in this game. You uncurl if you don't hold down, and you can't start rolling straight after hitting a horizontal spring or landing on a slope. That should be fixed. And has anyone else notice you can crouch by pressing B, but you can't roll by doing so? Honestly, pressing B to roll would be very satisfying.

[Preston]

Apparently its an older build according to someone on GAF who noticed that it played worse than the Sonic Boom build. I'll be the judge of that come SoS

The download file on PSN also says it's "Demo #1". Does that mean there will be a Demo #2?

[crush40rocks]

If you want solid evidence of ramps being scripted, go to the platform in the cave area in-between the two swinging platforms, then jump around the edge of either side and you should find yourself get a sudden boost high into the air.

A good example.

The physics are good, but they feel too locked in and scripted. It feels like the game is holding my hand as I play when cause-and-effect should just happen naturally. On some slopes, It is impossible to just sail up at anything but the angle that is predetermined by the slope itself. Going up slopes also feels too scripted. There should be no scripting whatsoever when it comes to these aspects. It should be left up to cause and effect. Also, the fanbase pretty much agrees that Sonic's jump feels too heavy and he doesn't have enough hangtime in order for it to feel natural. Should probably be a happy medium between Sonic 4's super-floaty jump and Generation's anvil-jump. Better yet, don't focus on it so minutely that you wind up scripting the nature of the jump too. If you're trying to recreate the Genesis experience, then you shouldn't be scripting ANYTHING regarding physics, except for the parameters of Sonic's behavior as a whole. What happens during gameplay should be a natural result of Sonic's behavior colliding with the level, not Sonic's behavior plus some forced scripted segments. They have no place in a Classic Sonic experience and actually sucks a lot of fun out of what made the Classic titles great in the first place. The Classic Sonic experience should be unfettered and free-form, not scripted ANYWHERE! Also, the spindash is extremely overpowered. It allows for things like this to happen:

Also, people are saying that the rolling doesn't feel right and I'm inclined to agree. As you roll down a slope, you should continue to pick up speed like rolling a pinball down a slope. This really seems to be the biggest complaint with the classic physics in this game besides the fact that the physics themselves are not freeform, but hand-holding in nature and feel locked and scripted (and makes the experience more boring than it should be). Ramps, loops,and other sections of a level should NOT have built-in code to force Sonic to speed up, slow down, go at a certain angle, or do anything that he wouldn't do naturally with the physics that are built into HIM. It's him and the level. The result of his movement should be a byproduct of those two meeting. Stop forcing it.

Oh, also, there is one little bug I'd like to report that has a 100% occurrence rate. After the upside down segment near the beginning of Green Hill (immediately after the big canyon jump), after you hit the spring and head towards the slope with the spikes at the top, if you hold right, Sonic mysteriously shoots backwards. Again, this is probably due to the wacky physics modifier encoded into that particular slope (which should not be there in the first place). If you approach that same slope and coast before you reach the top, you take flight at a pre-determined angle that cannot be broken by player control. Again, stop scripting these events.

CAUSE + EFFECT = HAPPY

Remember this formula and ditch the stage's hidden scripted segments and you'll be just fine, so long as you fix all the other complaints we have. Really, if you want to succeed at this (recreating the genesis experience), then you should just recycle the physics engine from one of the classic games, it's that simple. We won't fault you for it, but rather, we would rejoice in the fact that you finally got it right.

Anyway, aside from the above mentioned things, I love the demo and can't wait for the finished product. I apologize for all the seemingly negative info in this comment, but I assure you it was strictly for the purpose of feedback so that these issues may be addressed before Sonic's big 20th b-day game is released. This is really important to us, to please take your time to polish the game as much as possible. We as fans appreciate a well-oiled game even if it has to be in development longer in order to do so. Thank you for taking the time to read my feedback.

I don't mind some scripted events. You know, scripted spring here and an automatic S tunnel there, but everything? Everything is scripted. All the ramps, even! It really puts a terrible dampener on the gameplay, and I'd rather they fixed that than rolling.

And now on to rolling. You can't continuously roll in this game. You uncurl if you don't hold down, and you can't start rolling straight after hitting a horizontal spring or landing on a slope. That should be fixed. And has anyone else notice you can crouch by pressing B, but you can't roll by doing so? Honestly, pressing B to roll would be very satisfying.

Sega, you're taking Classic Sonic and trying to put too much emphasis on his running when some of the most fun we had on the Genesis titles was rolling! That's where most of the momentum came from! Just play a classic Sonic game for ten minutes and you'll see the appeal we're wanting in our Classic Sonic experience! I can understand taking something like Sonic 4 and accepting that it's not EXACTLY like the Genesis experience because you were trying a new approach, but this time you outwardly said you were trying to recreate the Genesis experience, and there is only one way you can truly do that, and that is to use the same exact physics engine from one of the earlier titles. We would be eternally grateful if you did this, and because it's the Genesis experience you're trying to imitate, I think many others here in the thread could agree with me on this.

Edited June 24, 2011 by crush40rocks

[Dark Qiviut]

Really, if you want to succeed at this (recreating the genesis experience), then you should just recycle the physics engine from one of the classic games, it's that simple. We won't fault you for it, but rather, we would rejoice in the fact that you finally got it right.

One teensy problem with that.

Sonic Generations uses a much stronger system with 3D graphics. The way the 360 and PS3 are designed from inside and out are much different compared to the Genesis, CD, 32X, and Saturn. The newer technology compared to the older sixteen- to thirty-two-bit hardware, the way the camera operates in SG HD, and possibly copyright reasons are likely why Sonic Team can't place the physics coding from the Classics into here. And even if the Classic physics engine is perfectly feasible for the high-definition systems, ST HD can't merely slap the physics codes into the Classic gameplay: Doing that might actually give the gameplay even worse issues.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Attitude Adjustment

[crush40rocks]

One teensy problem with that.

Sonic Generations uses a much stronger system with 3D graphics. The way the 360 and PS3 are designed from inside and out are much different compared to the Genesis, CD, 32X, and Saturn. The newer technology compared to the older sixteen- to thirty-two-bit hardware, the way the camera operates in SG HD, and possibly copyright reasons are likely why Sonic Team can't place the physics coding from the Classics into here. And even if the Classic physics engine is perfectly feasible for the high-definition systems, ST HD can't merely slap the physics codes into the Classic gameplay: Doing that might actually give the gameplay even worse issues.

Still, there surely must be workarounds for issues like these. Or at the very least they could play the games and try to emulate them to the best of their ability in order to deliver what they say they're trying to deliver, because working from the ground up with the physics isn't bringing back the nostalgia they're aiming for. It seems like if they would actually play the game that they should know the selling points of the classics, because surely they didn't play them for reference and then say, "That rolling around and momentum-based experience sure was fun! Let's try to appeal to the fans' nostalgia by taking that away and put our own squiggles of code in it's place. Surely there must be some nostalgia in something new, right?"

Edited June 24, 2011 by crush40rocks

[Ruby Havoc]

In the scripted loop thing, when I spindashed, Sonic would glitch on it. He would either run into an invisible wall on it or hover run over it and stuff like that. It happens to me all the time.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Torcano

[Preston]

Sega should just watch this video. It addresses most of the things they need to fix.

[Tornado]

I actually got a lot of Sonic CD vibes from how stiff it seemed.

[ChikaBoing]

Why can't I roll down slopes. Or jump from them. They are wierd in this game.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[crush40rocks]

I miss Yuji Naka. ._.

[SilentDoom]

Not by me, but this shows some interesting criticisms.

[Preston]

I already posted that video on the previous page, but thanks for posting it on this page as well. Sega needs to see it.

[Blue Blood]

You know what hill leading down into the cave at the end of the stage? I was to spindash off the ramp at the end and soar through the air like I did in Emerald Hill all those years ago. It's not possible now because the ramps are scripted. There's a brilliant, full functioning physics engine there. Why the hell won't Sonic Team let me use it?

EDIT: Okay guys, try not to back track. Especially if you plan on doing it by running (not rolling) through S-tunnels. It can cause Sonic's alignment on the path to break. If you do it with the t wo S-tunnels near the start of the stage, he ends up a little closer to the foreground. Not a massive issue, but that means he can't hit enemies like the Buzz Bombers, or the Choppers until they're very close to the ground.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Blue Blood