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Chaos Warp

How fast does sonic need to run in-game?

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(Caution, this may be slightly long, so bear with me)

I've been thinking: how fast does sonic need to run in-game?

If his in game speed was a perfect representation of how fast he actually runs (speeds at or exceeding the speed of sound) the game would probably be unplayable by the average mortal. Games like Unleashed (and games that follow the general style like Colors and Modern Sonic's gameplay in Generations) is as good a representation as you can get without getting to fast it's unplayable. However, those game's levels are designed for Sonic's very fast speed, and can have a lack of player involvement sometimes (this only applies to Colors in 3d sections). I still liked Unleashed and thought it was fun, but I like Colors better because it had more player involvement with all the 2d platforming and wisp abilities, Still, the 3d in Colors sections still get monotonous sometimes.

Sa1-2 had great, fast-paced gameplay but the speed sonic ran in those games(at least not assisted by a speed booster)was not a very accurate representation of his true speed (Don't get the wrong idea, I still love those games and how well sonic's true speed is represented is a very minor nitpick for me, as long as the game has reasonably fast-paced gameplay)

So tell me your opinion! How fast should Sonic run in-game for a compromise between representation and game-play? Myself, I like Unleashed/Colors/Generations (Modern Sonic), but i think far less time should be spent at his max speed-boost speed and more time at his non-boost max speed, to facilitate less of the "boost to win" gameplay and more platforming and player involvement.

Edited by Chaos Warp

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Guess I'll get in on this first. Adventure 2 was a bad example of Sonic's speed. If you really payed attention, Knuckles seemed to run faster than the blue guy himself. I personally think Adventure had one of the slower sonic's....in 3D. Unleashed is a perfect example of his speed. I mean moving at 300+ it's all about quick reflexes and timing. Imagine driving a car doing at least 120 down the freeway. I've done 115 before so I know the speed. It feels amazing, but also requires a bit faster reflexes. If you turn to hard, you may flip the car. If you are not paying attention to the road, you may hit someone or something. It's perfect for him. Colours....eh it slowed sonic down just to give him wisps gimicks he could live without. (even thoughh LASER was pretty awesome). Colours was faster than Adventure 1, 2 Heroes and his wii story book games. But did not really show the player what he could do if he was let out of the cage.

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So tell me your opinion! How fast should Sonic run in-game for a compromise between representation and game-play? Myself, I like Unleashed/Colors/Generations (Modern Sonic, but i think far less time should be spent at his max speed-boost speed and more time at his non-boost max speed, to facilitate less of the "boost to win" gameplay and more platforming and player involvement.

I'd say that the quick step was an example of boosting with player involvement, Sonic Colors had less boosting areas and more platforming sections, but that didn't really work out too well for me, I think Sonic Generations will have more 3D areas with more involvement.

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For me I think that the max speed that sonic had in unleashed without the boost was perfect because you could still be fast but not freaking fast that sometimes you don't see where your going. Of course boost is a sonic only capability but they should reduce its use to the minimum in other to have more platformer sequences.

Don't get me wrong I loved unleashed, but i think it could much more.

But I also see that generations until now hasn't disappointed in platformer material in the modern sections, who knows maybe I could be wrong.

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Sonic's top speed should be dependent on how Sonic Team feels like playing with the spectrum of speed and platforming that day. The supposed marriage of those two ideals is a fairly malleable one which naturally lends itself to various acceleration capabilities and top speeds that fit certain games much better than others. Ergo, I find the talk of putting him on some sort of speed cap (much less one as slow as Colors'; that felt slow even within the context of the game's platforming-heavy nature) completely detrimental to the series' general philosophy as well as specific gaming experiences, and a snatching away of half the thrill that comes from the modern games in the first place. I also find it a bit irrelevant in light of what is probably the bigger problem: The lack of precision we've had over Sonic which has been present regardless of his speed.

If I were to cite my favorite display of speed, it would be Unleashed, free boost and all. Do I really need to explain why?

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How fast does sonic need to run in-game?
Not very. I feel strongly that the face-peeling speed of Unleashed and the like is doing more harm than good to the series; gameplay at that speed tends to come down to either effortless boost hallways (if there aren't any obstacles) or pseudo-QTEs (if there are), neither of which is good design. It ends up being a game of cheap thrills and shallow gameplay. Toning down his speed doesn't lose anything but that cheap thrill, and it makes up for it by actually being controllable; rather than launching forward and praying you can react in time (and correctly), you can actually have proper control over Sonic's speed and agility.

Plus, I think variations in speed and direction are more important than simple top speed.

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The first Sonic game I played (Rush 2, heh) made my eyes hurt from trying to keep up with it. Pretty pathetic, yeah, but hah.

I think Unleashed had the best representation of fast, yet involved in its 3D sections. You had to pay close attention to what you were doing as to not loose the speed, but it wasn't monotonous. It felt great. It was super fast with the boost, but not to the point of unplayablility. The only problem I had with the boost was how easy it was to get, otherwise I thought it was great. Colors, imo, had the worst in terms of the 3D sections, but it was a lot more 2D and platforming based. IIRC it was just boosting and drifting in 3D. There's not much of a comparison, really, haha, but it still had a good sense of speed.

Personally, I think it was the speed in Unleashed that made the levels as fun as they were, so yeah =p.

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While I love Unleashed and wouldn't want to see his TOP speed reduced ever, I can agree with Diogenes that variation is also very important. One of the coolest moments in Unleashed is grinding down around the clock tower in Spagonia, and the reason it's so cool is because you had the platforming beforehand to reach it. Had you just run straight up the building automatically to grind back down, it wouldn't have been quite as cool.

I WOULD cite Unleashed Wii/PS2 Spagonia here, but I think the thrill factor there was more lacking due to not having an over-the-shoulder view of the grinding moment.

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I suppose the whole deal is a tricky situation, because they want to be able to portray the fact that Sonic is really fast, but it's hard to do so accurately in-game without screwing people over. I think that recent games like Generations trying their best to represent the speed, if in the case of illusion (specially with the FX that happen when you hit the boost). So it would take some major thought as to how to pull it off the best.

Though if you can't speed him up, create the illusion of speed by slowing other things down. But that takes the challenge out of things, wouldn't it?

Actually Shadow's Chaos Control in the self-titled game pulled this off rather well during boss fights...

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While I love Unleashed and wouldn't want to see his TOP speed reduced ever, I can agree with Diogenes that variation is also very important. One of the coolest moments in Unleashed is grinding down around the clock tower in Spagonia, and the reason it's so cool is because you had the platforming beforehand to reach it. Had you just run straight up the building automatically to grind back down, it wouldn't have been quite as cool

Ah but of course. I agree the speed is wayy too much after 15 or so seconds, its nice to have a break and have the platforming segment. The clock tower is probably what made that level so great, seriously. The balloons were a great addition on Sonic Team's part, because it also was a quick way of going up rather than having to home on enemies which slow down the speed =p

Edited by Melru

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How fast should Sonic run in-game for a compromise between representation and game-play?

As fast as he should need to. His speed should have to be flexible to suit the situation. By default he should be able to run fast, but still be slow enough to move around tight areas with ease. But at the same time he should be able to run really fast when he gets the chance.

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The boost needs to be treated as a wildcard rather than an obligation, for starters. The main reason people have fond memories of SatSR's Speed Break is because the scarcity and moderation of opportunities to use it meant you were never desensitized to it, it meant you were in better control of Sonic most of the time (for reasons not entirely inherent to the speed itself, mind you - when breakneck speed is moderated, for example, it gives developers incentive to make Sonic not control like a shopping cart whenever he's not at full speed), and it allows for more elaborate level design because, well frankly, nobody would stand a snowball's chance in hell if Scrap Brain had to be done at boost speeds. Honestly, just removing the boost bar entirely and draining rings directly for an instantaneous acceleration alone would be a pretty good start, but hell, there are other ways about it.

There IS a time and place for boost gameplay, though it shouldn't be expected of you at every conceivable moment, and it certaintly shouldn't be treated as a neccessity - just a bonus. It'd just be wrong for an icon of speed not to be able to run that fast at all.

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Sonic should be able to move at top speed given any oppertunity to do so.

The moment he has a long stretch like in Chemical Plant Zone, he should be able to book-it up to the speed of sound (with a Sonic Boom sound effect when he reaches said speed). However, when he doesn't have a long stretch to max out, he should stick to a much more controllable pace. Say something like non-boosting Generations speed. When you're moving really slow, then he should move like your average platformer.

His acceleration is the key issue here. If he accelerates too quickly, then we have a problem. If he accelerates too slowly, then we also have a problem. His acceleration should be moderate at low speeds, so that at least you can pick up some decent pace. Then once you hit a certain threshold speed, his acceleration increases to a certain extent, until he reaches his maximum speed.

I'll draw something later to show what I mean.

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Guess I'll get in on this first. Adventure 2 was a bad example of Sonic's speed. If you really payed attention, Knuckles seemed to run faster than the blue guy himself. I personally think Adventure had one of the slower sonic's....in 3D. Unleashed is a perfect example of his speed. I mean moving at 300+ it's all about quick reflexes and timing. Imagine driving a car doing at least 120 down the freeway. I've done 115 before so I know the speed. It feels amazing, but also requires a bit faster reflexes. If you turn to hard, you may flip the car. If you are not paying attention to the road, you may hit someone or something. It's perfect for him. Colours....eh it slowed sonic down just to give him wisps gimicks he could live without. (even thoughh LASER was pretty awesome). Colours was faster than Adventure 1, 2 Heroes and his wii story book games. But did not really show the player what he could do if he was let out of the cage.

This.

And my opinion on how fast he should run?

At the LITERAL speed of sound and when you unlock super sonic, your regular speed is sound speed and when you boost you break AVARYATHANG in your path at light speeds and beyond.

What can I say? I'm a speed freak!

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This.

And my opinion on how fast he should run?

At the LITERAL speed of sound and when you unlock super sonic, your regular speed is sound speed and when you boost you break AVARYATHANG in your path at light speeds and beyond.

What can I say? I'm a speed freak!

That would be awesome, if they find a way to make it playable, which they most likely will not.

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I think the adventure series were a good representation of how fast sonic should be in game but unleashed was pretty good too.

So I think that sonic could keep the booost as long as its moderated. At least on most games.

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This.

And my opinion on how fast he should run?

At the LITERAL speed of sound and when you unlock super sonic, your regular speed is sound speed and when you boost you break AVARYATHANG in your path at light speeds and beyond.

What can I say? I'm a speed freak!

That would be awesome, if they find a way to make it playable, which they most likely will not.

EDIT: Sorry for double post, my internet was lagging to extremes and I pressed the wrong button.

Edited by Chaos Warp

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I think Generations is doing it best. The boost is still fast, and his top speed is the same as in Unleashed, but his acceleration is slowed down to make platforming easier to control. Adventure had the right idea, but when he hit top speed, it felt like all of the walls were made of magnets and Sonic was in a suit of armor. The controls just weren't there.

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Eh, I'm sick of this boost crap. I blame Heroes, since the new style of main gameplay is literally the special stage gameplay from Heroes. Just change orbs to rings; you still just move left or right to dodge obstacles or jump what you can't invincibility your way through with the boost.

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Eh, I'm sick of this boost crap. I blame Heroes, since the new style of main gameplay is literally the special stage gameplay from Heroes. Just change orbs to rings; you still just move left or right to dodge obstacles or jump what you can't invincibility your way through with the boost.

Its a lot more than that...I hate when people bring down the gameplay to some mindless thing that requires little to know skill or something.

This style can't do open world environment?

Eggmanland Part 1 at the very start will completely disprove that theory.

Requires no skill?

I want to see you do this....

He goes so fast the the game can't keep up with him and he not just doing that by holding down the X button, there is momentum all around with perfect execution. Its not exactly classic, but it does enough homages to the Sonic style for me to consider it Sonic.

Its momentum done in a diffrent, but still rewarding way...and I love it.

I would love to know how the naysayers played Unleashed/Colors...I really would like to see how they play.

***

I still would like to see a boost or running system or gear system like Sonic Advance 2...just imagine going faster than boosting speeds do to your perfect execution of a level and the boosting aura started glowing a different color or gets bigger with after images. I would sonicgasm all over the place.

Edited by Voyant

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This style can't do open world environment?

Eggmanland Part 1 at the very start will completely disprove that theory.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing here, unless you consider grind rails separated by pits to be "open world".

Requires no skill?

I want to see you do this....

Not that I think Unleashed requires no skill, but you can make almost any game look ridiculous with a speedrun. And besides, I don't want to do that; snaking and memorization do not a good game make.

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I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing here, unless you consider grind rails separated by pits to be "open world".

I sure you played Eggmanland and know exactly how big and expansive it is. There plenty to do in that level I mean look around. In the first couple of levels of any Sonic game, you do just hold right (OR LEFT) and jump occasionally. Both the "modern" and "classic" Sonic games tend to introduce more difficult levels as you progress...like just about every other video game.

Not that I think Unleashed requires no skill, but you can make almost any game look ridiculous with a speedrun. And besides, I don't want to do that; snaking and memorization do not a good game make.

Well I don't mind snaking...and memorization is pretty much part of every game made to preform things well.

I refuse to turn this into another long winded Unleashed argument so I'm stopping here.

Edited by Voyant

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Its a lot more than that...I hate when people bring down the gameplay to some mindless thing that requires little to know skill or something.

This style can't do open world environment?

Eggmanland Part 1 at the very start will completely disprove that theory.

Watched the first 3 minutes, "at the very start" would imply it would be in that section of video; unless you mean the Werehog section, which isn't helping your case.

Requires no skill?

I want to see you do this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_%28game%29

He goes so fast the the game can't keep up with him and he not just doing that by holding down the X button, there is momentum all around with perfect execution. Its not exactly classic, but it does enough homages to the Sonic style for me to consider it Sonic.

Not new... at all. Seriously, even the genesis couldn't keep up at times.

Its momentum done in a diffrent, but still rewarding way...and I love it.

I would love to know how the naysayers played Unleashed/Colors...I really would like to see how they play.

Oh. Now I get it, you don't know what momentum means and just think speed in general = "momentum".

To answer that last part; pretty well, with a bit of trouble on Eggmanland the 1st and only trip through. 100%ed Colors and then never touched it again either.

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