How fast does sonic need to run in-game?

[Voyant]

Watched the first 3 minutes, "at the very start" would imply it would be in that section of video; unless you mean the Werehog section, which isn't helping your case.

http://en.wikipedia....tion_%28game%29

Seems like you didn't play much of Unleashed..let alone Eggmanland if I have to actually SHOW you how expansive Eggmanland is in the beginning.

Not new... at all. Seriously, even the genesis couldn't keep up at times.

Yeah knew this too...sooo how exactly do you think he is going fast in the game like that...hmm? Gaining more speed that the game entails the level to do? How do you think he doing that...just going by the top speed of pressing the X button?

Oh. Now I get it, you don't know what momentum means and just think speed in general = "momentum".

To answer that last part; pretty well, with a bit of trouble on Eggmanland the 1st and only trip through. 100%ed Colors and then never touched it again either.

Then you don't know how big an expansive, the shortcuts...the platforming elements...how layerd environmental is then.

Also if you know what momentum is so much enlighten me...in your own words tell me what it is...I'm curious.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Voyant

[Flame Reaver]

Seems like you didn't play much of Unleashed..let alone Eggmanland if I have to actually SHOW you how expansive Eggmanland is in the beginning.

Irony here is that you didn't, because there isn't any. Two people have called you out on it and you keep pretending it's there. You aren't a formidable opponent if you just argue your fantasies (avatar should have warned me), so BL for you.

[Voyant]

Irony here is that you didn't, because there isn't any. Two people have called you out on it and you keep pretending it's there. You aren't a formidable opponent if you just argue your fantasies (avatar should have warned me), so BL for you.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Voyant

[Scar]

Oh. Now I get it, you don't know what momentum means and just think speed in general = "momentum".

Its clear to me that you don't know what momentum is.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity

This is basic physics, and if you don't know that, then you are in no position to lecture anyone about physics. This simple little equation proves that momentum is a product of speed and mass. It doesn't matter how you gained that speed, but as long as you have any kind of speed; you have momentum. When you type a post on your keyboard, your fingers have momentum.

Irony here is that you didn't, because there isn't any. Two people have called you out on it and you keep pretending it's there. You aren't a formidable opponent if you just argue your fantasies (avatar should have warned me), so BL for you.

And you are a formidible opponent?

Lets have a look shall we?

Eh, I'm sick of this boost crap. I blame Heroes, since the new style of main gameplay is literally the special stage gameplay from Heroes. Just change orbs to rings; you still just move left or right to dodge obstacles or jump what you can't invincibility your way through with the boost.

Call that an argument? It reads more like a generalised statement.

This statement you have made holds absolutely no ground, because it is simply untrue. If you tried doing that in most Unleashed stages, and you would find yourself getting nowhere fast. Moving forward is generally the idea in a platformer. You start at the beginning, and get through the level to the finish line. What else were you expecting. Condemning the current gameplay formula for moving forward is like condeming Mario for jumping. Its a give, because forward is where you need to go to get anywhere.

If you want your argument to hold any weight then please substantiate your claims. Based off of your own standards, you are actually a worse opponent than you claim Voyant to be. Where have you actually tried to back up your argument. Diogenese popped in randomly and intervened. Other than that, you, yourself, have done pretty much nothing.

Oh well, you did attempt to insult Voyant for no apparent reason, other than the fact that you think you're right and he's wrong. Again, you have no evidence or even a reason to justify your claims. You kind of need those things to be taken seriously.

Irony here is that you didn't, because there isn't any.

Oh no there is. Its not exactly "open world", but it certainly has its fair share of alternate routes and heavy-duty platforming (not counting the werehog). Unfortunately for Voyant, his example had a player you utilised an alternate route that was a shortcut. There are other examples that show you just how many different paths there are in Eggmanland.

Take this for example:

Compare that to the first 50 seconds of Voyants first Eggmanland video. In this case, he simply switched rails to the left, and it took him to a completely different part of Eggmanland.

And here we have yet another example:

He took the left rail again, but this time he landed on a different track and ended up being taken to a completely different location within Eggmanland, yet again.

There are whole lot more places like this within the first day-time section of Eggmanland. You can play the stage for yourself to find out just how many different routes there are within that section, though I think you get the point.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Scar

[Gaming Misfit]

Adventure was a nice start....Colors is the best level of speed for Sonic in my opinion. Alot of people argue and say it's too fast even for Sonic and it kills alot of the platforming, but I just think it's really fun boosting and running like crazy. You may disagree, but I like it.

[Voyant]

Its clear to me that you don't know what momentum is.

Man don't bother...you already know where this is going...he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Let him pretend like he does and maybe he will get it in time.

Adventure was a nice start....Colors is the best level of speed for Sonic in my opinion. Alot of people argue and say it's too fast even for Sonic and it kills alot of the platforming, but I just think it's really fun boosting and running like crazy. You may disagree, but I like it.

I agree while I still like Unleashed more than colors...

Colors got a good balance to it...now they just need to shift that speed balance in 3D and we are good (Sonic Generations)

Edited July 11, 2011 by Voyant

[Flame Reaver]

Adventure was a nice start....Colors is the best level of speed for Sonic in my opinion. Alot of people argue and say it's too fast even for Sonic and it kills alot of the platforming, but I just think it's really fun boosting and running like crazy. You may disagree, but I like it.

I won't argue that there is some entertainment to be found, but it tends to feel like a shallow experience compared to anything other than a racing game (and from what I hear, NFS: The Run is going to have QTE running segments, just like Unleashed. Finally a game copying Sonic instead of the other way around, ^^, when was the last time that happened, Busby?)

It's all fun and games until someone decides to have an opinion.

This. I still don't get why people get so offended about the opinions of others, though I love the Facebook-escue quality of this forum; tangible evidence of offense being taken... quite funny.

[Gaming Misfit]

I won't argue that there is some entertainment to be found, but it tends to feel like a shallow experience compared to anything other than a racing game (and from what I hear, NFS: The Run is going to have QTE running segments, just like Unleashed. Finally a game copying Sonic instead of the other way around, ^^, when was the last time that happened, Busby?)

This. I still don't get why people get so offended about the opinions of others, though I love the Facebook-escue quality of this forum; tangible evidence of offense being taken... quite funny.

1. The new style isn't for everyone. I like Adventure too, because there's more to just boosting and running fast..., but I like this one simply because it's fun and easy.

2. Ah yes, thank you. I love my signature. And I like the FB like style up here. It's like Sonic FB.

[Scar]

This. I still don't get why people get so offended about the opinions of others, though I love the Facebook-escue quality of this forum; tangible evidence of offense being taken... quite funny.

I was quite unaffected by what you said, until:

Oh. Now I get it, you don't know what momentum means and just think speed in general = "momentum".

Its all well and good to have an opinion, but in this situation you were wrong, but you said (rather patronisingly) that Voyant was wrong, even though he was in fact, correct.

I'm sorry, but you can't hide behind the opinion card all the time, because this has nothing to do with opinion.

Eh, I'm sick of this boost crap. I blame Heroes, since the new style of main gameplay is literally the special stage gameplay from Heroes. Just change orbs to rings; you still just move left or right to dodge obstacles or jump what you can't invincibility your way through with the boost.

...neither is this in all honesty. This is an exaggeration.

[Treacher]

I sort of agree with Dio. To be honest, I never felt really engaged in Sonic Unleashed's daytime stages until I got to Eggmanland; as soon as it got to my liking it ended. I wish the rest of the game took a few pages from Eggmanland in terms of complexity.

[SuperClassic]

I won't argue that there is some entertainment to be found, but it tends to feel like a shallow experience compared to anything other than a racing game (and from what I hear, NFS: The Run is going to have QTE running segments, just like Unleashed. Finally a game copying Sonic instead of the other way around, ^^, when was the last time that happened, Busby?)

This. I still don't get why people get so offended about the opinions of others, though I love the Facebook-escue quality of this forum; tangible evidence of offense being taken... quite funny.

The reason people were bothered was because your views simply seemed ignorant, you act as if Sonic Unleashed is some game that takes no effort whatsoever. Btw, your arrogant comments towards Voyant didn't exactly make you look any better, either.

I sort of agree with Dio. To be honest, I never felt really engaged in Sonic Unleashed's daytime stages until I got to Eggmanland; as soon as it got to my liking it ended. I wish the rest of the game took a few pages from Eggmanland in terms of complexity.

My only problem with some of the levels in Unleashed, which looks like it is fixed in Generations, is the lack of complexity in 3D sections, one thing that I'd love to see carried over from the classics is level gimmicks like the barrel from Sonic 3 and Knuckles. But either way I like most of the daytime levels in Sonic Unleashed.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Schismatist

[Dr Jackstraw]

he needs to be really fast

like fast

[sayi50]

I actually loved Unleashed's speed style. Believe it or not it was pretty controllable for me with my "Boost, boost, BOOOOST!" mode on. Of course I can't do that Apotos run from that video but that's just because I don't remember the level anymore.

Anyway just like someone on this topic said(Sorry poster, I'm not good with names), the speed should balance the platforming which means it is okay for Sonic to be slow sometimes... I mean look at Sonic Rivals. He was freaking slow without his so called "Signature Move"... Since when Sonic had to execute a move to run at a speed where he should run with his eyes closed? Wait, don't answer that... That was sarcasm. Yet, I still like the Unleashed gameplay and its "boost" move.

The gameplay and level designs called for Sonic to be slowed down in Sonic Rivals and so he was slower. The gameplay and level design BEGGED for Sonic to boost in Unleashed, so he just, boosted.

[MizukiMoon]

I personally, absolutely hate Sonic's speed in the more recent Sonic games, in my opinion, they've made Sonic TOO fast to the point where it seems it's all you do, run from A to B at top speed and nothing else. It's come to the point where for me, I no longer even play recent Sonic games anymore, I play 'em once or twice, but cannot get into them due to the ridiculous speed and cruddy controls because of this.

I reckon Sonic's speed in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 was ideal, Sonic was fast, but not out of control fast and you still had some decent gameplay/could take in the scenery, etc.

[lounge]

Just because sonic can go beyond 300mph, for the sake of gameplay I don't like it. Sonic 06's mach speed sections was actually a good idea that should be used in newer games instead of that speed being part of the actual main gameplay.

I like to be in control and pull off cool tricks with SA2 style physics. Not saying the newer games should have SA2 sonic's top speed, but I like the trick based gameplay.

I do love going at insane speeds, but not the entire level and when you can just boost thru enemies and grind rails with no effort. I hate that.

A game like F Zero GX where you can go at insane speeds is fun because every move you do counts. You're very much in control and it's not like there are obstacles to murder you in your path. Your boost isn't continuous like in Unleashed and Colors, and you actually have to use them at the right time.The only obstacles are the directions of the roads. F Zero GX's style would be cool for parts of a sonic game.

[Scar]

Just because sonic can go beyond 300mph, for the sake of gameplay I don't like it. Sonic 06's mach speed sections was actually a good idea that should be used in newer games instead of that speed being part of the actual main gameplay.

I like to be in control and pull off cool tricks with SA2 style physics. Not saying the newer games should have SA2 sonic's top speed, but I like the trick based gameplay.

SA2's trick system was hitting the jump button at the right time. Hardly a trick system by any standards.

Generations control-stick waggling is a much better idea, but you should be able to do it off of any ramp, if you have enough height.

Other than that, Unleashed's speed (without boost) is good. Its faster than SA1/2/Heroes, but not so fast that its uncontrollable.

Though again I'd prefer it if you could go BOOST speeds when you have a long downhill straight. Increase acceleration when Sonic reaches a certain minimum speed when going downhill.

[ChikaBoing]

I don't get the people who say that Unleashed is all about memorization and you only being there to do one specific thing at the time and just watch Sonic go off...SA2 works the same way,once you A-Rank Metal Harbor or City Escape you won't gonna play them differently each playtrough...

[Diogenes]

I don't get the people who say that Unleashed is all about memorization and you only being there to do one specific thing at the time and just watch Sonic go off...SA2 works the same way,once you A-Rank Metal Harbor or City Escape you won't gonna play them differently each playtrough...

The conclusion you should draw from that is that neither game is good enough.

[lounge]

SA2's trick system was hitting the jump button at the right time. Hardly a trick system by any standards.

I like it because you also need the right speed to reach and fly farther. The same goes with the pole swinging. And doing a spindash and then jumping at the top of a hill to go really high. It's fun to play around with stuff like that in an open environment. I don't get that with Unleashed. That's why I like the Adventure style speed better.

[The Weeb with No Name]

At long stretches, he should be able to shatter the sound barrier.

[Chaos Warp]

Woooooo first topic, wow it's been a while since then huh........

Anyway, I now feel that some sort of compromise between Generations's max non-boosting speed and Adventure's natural top speed should be made. I think twice SA1's natural speed (With SA1's accel) would be perfect: Not so fast that you have to tighten his turning arc like crazy ala Generations (You would have to have a turning arc, but it could be really tight), but fast enough that you feel that you have a decently fast natural top end. Of course, this "game-in-theory" would have to have ways to attain Unleashed-boost levels of speed, perhaps through momentum and a SAdv2 style "Boost Mode"?

[Scar]

I think the best way to answer this topic, is to say; as fast as the environment allows you to go.

[Diogenes]

Do you design the environment around his speed, or his speed around the environment?

[Scar]

Do you design the environment around his speed, or his speed around the environment?

Both I guess.

As in when done perfectly, you should be able to flow through a stage like water. Obviously, it should be difficult to just speed through the stage, but the environment should allow you to go really fucking fast, it should just be difficult to do so (and maintain it)

[neezTHEhuman]

Here's my opinion. Sonic should not be fast in the sense that: if you are just running along flat ground with no obstacles there should be a speed cap similar to what other platformers have like Mario and Donkey Kong when pressing their dash buttons. This is what the classics (and Adventure games to some exten)t did and despite Sega's false propaganda (blue blur, speed demon etc) used to generate interest and sales, Sonic was in fact slow in a straight line or at least no different than the already established platformers of the era in this respect. However, the creators were smart in that they took care to at least create some illusion of speed by making the iconic running animation and having detailed backgrounds with regularly placed stationary objects like trees and posts (Green Hil). Also the aim was to facilitate continuous forward movement as much as possible to add to this illusion, so the level designer (Hirokazu Yasuhara) created unique environments that had more ramps, slopes and springs than obstructing walls and floating platforms above bottomless pits that were common in other platform games and the spin attack jump was so you could platform and attack enemies without the need to stop. So was Sonic's speed just a myth? No because first of all the temporary speed shoe power up but also: physics and momentum (programed by Yuji Naka) which is basically a fancy way of saying rolling down a hill makes you go fast and that this extra speed once obtained can be maintained and carried over by skilful experienced players. If you were not experienced or you simply did not want to go fast because it’s just not your style then you didn’t have to.

Trial and error, luck over skill is the price you pay for high speed as well as bad level design. It is not fun for new or inexperienced players because of the cheap deaths and also not everyone wants to go fast. There are different playstyles: kleptomaniacs who want to collect every ring, newbs, get to the end without taking a hit, people who just want to explore, screw around and appreciate the open space as well as speed runners. In the classics the level design is the best because it does not force you to go fast and anyone can have fun playing whatever their style and once you memorize the level you can seed run because you know where the pits/spikes are, you can't expect a newb to speed run like the modern fast games. Sonic 4 sucked not because of wrong physics but because it forced you to go fast resulting in levels full of speed traps where you did nothing but hold forward and homing attack enemies instead of platform because platforming is slower than h.a chains on bubbles all of which equates to bad level design.

Rant starts here: The current boost speed introduced in Unleashed and continued with Generations as well as high speeds of Heroes can go to hell. It raped the level design in those 3 games: all Unleashed day acts were an abomination and modern Generations levels: Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Speed Highway and Rooftop Run continued this disgraceful trend. Boost = lots of: Straight lines, highways in the sky, hallways, narrow corridors, quicktime events, pseudo quicktime events like press jump to go through a boost ring, boost rings, boost pads, boost ramps, scripted events, trial and error gameplay, automation, quickstep, drift, excessive rail grinding, cheap deaths etc all of these things can GO TO HELL!!

Point: just make Sonic slow like in the classics, rolling down hill=speed