Do you think SatAM is a overrated cartoon?

[Kuzu]

And what do you mean "outside these forums"? I thought SA2 was pretty well loved here?

lol no. While we don't hate it, we don't consider it the master piece that most fans make it out to be, espcially considering 2/3 of the game is crap.

[Balding Spider]

I honestly believe that SatAM is way past overrated. I was a fan back when I was a kid, but damn did it not hold up well.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Balding Spider

[Brad]

I enjoyed watching SatAM, but it's really overrated.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Zero-Boom

[Diogenes]

people don't like grim and dark in sonic?

then why is sonic adventure 2 so loved outside these forums

In a lot of places, SA2's tone is considered either excessive or at the far edge of acceptable. In any case, it was definitely a departure from the tone the games had previously.

[Mega]

I happen to think SatAM is a good 90's cartoon. Not perfection, but I'd be lying if I said all the SatAM hate around here didn't make me a little uneasy, as it's my favorite Sonic continuity.

Moreover, it has my favorite version of the character, which is controversial in and of itself.

That being said, I don't think it's that overrated, considering a great portion of the fandom hates it, but that's just me.

[Dr. Crusher]

Definitely. Even without me simply being more of an AoStH person, I just don't see why it's so special. Not fond of the Freedom Fighter rebellion group cliche (though I don't mind Sally/Bunnie/Antoine/Rotor as characters), not fond of the rather bleak style, and not fond of it's Robotnik. With the exception of Jim Cumming's voice (which was awesome), I can never look at comments saying "SatAM Robotnik was actually threatening" with a straight face, especially when said comments include his appearance. Yes, Game Robotnik may not be the most frightening looking fellow around, but you're telling me that Yellow-Caped YMCA Suit Julian was any better? Really?

Naugus was pretty cool though.

Also, Sonic's an idiot.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[Shawn7]

Sonic satam was boring.

Chris X wasn't any better.

The Sonic OVA (JPNvoices)was the only good one

[Sonictrainer]

SA2 is not "grim and dark" in any way.

Edited July 16, 2011 by STrainer

[TheDanimator]

No, its a great cartoon.

It had some cheesey moments but it SHREDED almost anything thats out nowadays.

[-Mark-]

As others have said:

• It's overrated, but also over-hated
• The peripheral media had little to work with from the games and had to flesh things out themselves back in the early 90s
• You always remember things from your childhood as being better than they actually were/ are

So yeah. I remember watching SatAM as a kid and loving it. Then I didn't have access to it again until it got released on DVD a few years back. Until I got the DVDs, the Archie comic was my only access to the SatAM universe. As such, I judged my memories of SatAM based on the comic, of which my opinions were... less-than-stellar.

Upon rewatching the series a few years ago?

The first half is fluff. Episodic filler-esque material with very little ongoing plot. The second half holds up much better. I will say that Rotor's redesign and voice change in the second series bugs me, though, and Dulcy's random, unexplained inclusion does grate a little.

So yeah. SatAM is a decent series, but in my opinion, it's not 'Sonic'. Just like AoStH, they're both accomplished at what they do, but, much like the Archie comic of today, you could quite easily strip away the few Sonic elements the series actually feature and be left with a generic cartoon.

[Skull Leader]

Personally I think it is, especially when many use arguments like the atmosphere being more dark or Robotnik being an actual threat, which personally I don't find as such (tough there was a line that I actually liked, where he mention how once considered robotizing sonic, the changed his mind and asked for a rifle).

Also, Sonic's an idiot.

What did you expect? it was the 90's feminism, especially the DiC style where the girl is smart and competent and the guy is dumb.

[batson]

I think it's only fair to point out that one must remember that in comparasion to the majority of other american action cartoons airing at the time, SatAM really was better than average. This might almost be hard to comprehend 18 years later since the quality of the average action cartoon has become so much higher, but it's true nevertheless. Sure, by 1993 there had already appared a handfull of good action cartoons during the last two years or so (im thinking mainly of Swat Kats, Pirates in Dark Water and of course the great Batman: The Animated Series). But the vast majority of action cartoons at the time were still of the craptasic 80's-type. You know, cartoons in the same vein as the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (which was itself still going by the way) or G.I Joe, where you could tell that the writers simply did not care about any "quality" at all an instead wrote practically the same extremelty repetative and dumb episode over and over again. The sheer fact that SatAM attempted to make its main villain come of as an actuall threat, had the heroes not succeed in eveything they did, and had plot threads that ran across entire seasons made the show better than 90% of it's peers.

This is also why the show is so fondly remembered as an epic masterpiece by those who watched it as little kids when it initially aired. It seemed that way compared to most of the other kids cartoons at the time (not that the lighthearted action cartoons such as TMNT weren't entertaining to kids of course, they just didn't really came of as particularly serious and epic to most).

Edited July 16, 2011 by batson

[Scar]

As a standalone cartoon, I think its pretty damn good.

As a Sonic cartoon, I think its overrated by many of its fans. Why?

Personally, it felt like a cartoon, with Sonic elements placed in it, rather than a Sonic cartoon. For some reason, I've always felt that Sonic took a back seat, while Sally was the driver. She was a really well developed character, who seemed to be the focus of the show, even though that Cartoon was called "Sonic the Hedgehog". Sonic, whilst he had is trademark brash attitude, it felt like he was taking orders a whole lot of the time. I don't ever remember him calling the shots. That was relegated mainly to Sally.

Another problem was Robotnik. I don't know, its something about his completely irredeemable evil persona that didn't sit well with me. He just felt like a big ball of pure evil; who hated Sonic vehemontly, for seemingly no reason. Yeah Sonic smashed a few of his Robots, but the rebels and Sally were just as much of a threat to his operations as Sonic, if not moreso. Yet he never hated them as much as he hated Sonic. That always used to bug me.

Course I could be wrong, but that is how I remember the show.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Scar

[No more]

I honestly think that SATAM is overated, just because the Nostalgia Critic likes it doesn't mean everyone has to like it.

I like AoStH because it was creative and fun to watch, prefect for those little Sonic fans who were sugar high, it added more elements from the game such as the chaos emeralds and some levels from the games.

I don't like SATAM because of the amount of characters added to the cartoon, Sonic and Tails are supposed to be the heroes and I feel that these characters from SATAM take that away a little.

That's my opinion

[Milo]

I honestly think that SATAM is overated, just because the Nostalgia Critic likes it doesn't mean everyone has to like it.

I like AoStH because it was creative and fun to watch, prefect for those little Sonic fans who were sugar high, it added more elements from the game such as the chaos emeralds and some levels from the games.

I don't like SATAM because of the amount of characters added to the cartoon, Sonic and Tails are supposed to be the heroes and I feel that these characters from SATAM take that away a little.

That's my opinion

I do recall Doug (who plays the Critic) talking as if that Tails beig downplayed in SatAM was a good thing...

[Pawn]

I didn't like it as a kid and I can't imagine I would now. The characters were the big turn-offs for me. Unnecessary and uninspired designs for furry companions, too much romance, a lack of Tails for the most part, Robotnik felt wrong, Swatbots instead of badniks... Ugh. I did prefer AoStH but that is something I could only appreciate as a kid. I'd hoped Sonic X would get it right but those bloody human characters* featured so much... =/

To those talking about SA2: I've never found it all that dark in tone, just slightly more than SA.

*Not that I had a problem with them featuring occasionally but it got a bit silly with Chris and some of the others.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Lungo

[Mangoaxe5]

No, I think that it's the best Sonic cartoon.

I like the story, and I like the idea of Sonic being a Freedom Fighter. The character's were likeable. And the show has my favorite version of Dr. Robotnik.

I prefer Sonic as a freedom fighter. I've never cared for Sonic as a character in the game canon. His whole live free and attitude never really interested me. I don't understand what game Sonic is fighting for.

But in Satam they give Sonic a backstory and we learn why he fights for freedom. And his attitude makes more sense since it's a defense mechanism.

And then there's Sally. Finally we get a female character that does not need a guy to save her.

Too bad the show got canceled.

I'm glad that the Archie Sonic comics still use thee "Freedom Fighters" who in my opinion are more interesting then the game characters.

Don't listen to the Satam haters. Watch this show and form your own opinions about it.

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, yeah. I think it's overrated.

I can't exactly say that watching an episode or two of it while housesitting resulting in me screaming at the television in anger at the utter stupidityy of the characters and plots is a positive reaction.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say this; to me, SatAM and AoStH were as stupid as each other. The difference being that while SatAM was actually meant to be a more serious cartoon made the utter stupidity come off as insufferable, whereas AosStH KNOWS it's stupid and zany, and runs with it, which allows the plot to take a backseat to the action and also allows the cast to come off as amicable.

[Flyboy Fox]

AoStH is my favourite Sonic canon of all time, but I absolute adore SatAM too. Topics like this don't make sense to me, because I really don't see why there needs to be a 'winner' declared between all the spin-offs from the game series. Saying "Sonic was never meant to be [insert something here]" could apply to ANY of the other media, AoStH included. I don't know why people can't just see them as entirely separate entities with a very vague common core, have their own preference, and leave it at that.

SatAM is kind of the Shadow the Hedgehog (character) of the Sonic media. People either seem to worship it or despise it, and get very heated over people with the opposite opinion. It really isn't fun to see. This goes equally for those who lord SatAM over other cartoons with elitist pomp as it does for those who constantly deride and bash the show. It's just a 90's cartoon which required a certain kind of taste to get into and enjoy, but remains well-liked by a reasonable number of people today. It has its pros and its cons, but it doesn't need to be such a controversial topic. It's just a cartoon, whether you love it or hate it.

That aside, my personal view on SatAM is that it was a clever idea executed in a flawed manner. To me, the show was very watchable and enjoyable, and it was nice to have dark themes tackled in that manner with a good mix of humour and silliness too. A lot of people don't care for the SatAM cast, but I really liked all of them (except for Dulcy). Sally, to me, was an incredibly strong female lead at a time when it was hard to find strong female leads (at least on British TV, lol?). Having said that, my love for the cast doesn't overshadow the fact that the games cast - including Sonic himself - were often shafted in favour of the cartoon-exclusives. Tails in particular got completely downgraded and was pretty much useless and weak, the helpless little kid rather than a bona fide Freedom Fighter. As a fan of Tails, obviously that irked me, but I liked the other characters enough to let it go. And SatAM Robotnik, well there's another much debated character. As someone who didn't care about the personality of the villain, I really liked how he was portrayed as nothing much more than a pure blob of absolute evil and malice. However, I can fully appreciate the point of view of Eggman fans who really don't care for Julian. It worked for me, but not for everyone. I also did enjoy the stories. They were a mix of dark and serious, poignant and thoughtful, and light and silly. They also carried some strong moral and ethical messages, which again some people don't care for but I really liked.

In the end, we're all entitled to our opinions, and I would have preferred if the topic was set up in such a way that we could discuss SatAM without its fans being forced to defend it from the get-go, but of course the OP is entitled to their own bias as much as any of the respondents. It's just a shame that this show is such Marmite, everywhere you go ):

[No more]

I do recall Doug (who plays the Critic) talking as if that Tails beig downplayed in SatAM was a good thing...

But he's a nintendo fan, he wouldn't know much about the Sonic series other than the stereotypical view of the games. That's what annoys me so much.

[Kuzu]

Before this turns into 'ZOMG SATAM SUX LOL" thread, I'll say I do appreciate what they tried to do with Sonic, they took a series that barely had any story and expanded on it, with varying degrees of results. I've watched a couple of episodes, I never watched the whole series because as someone said, most of the episodes were predictable and there was almost no sense of story at all, it was like I was watching a Darker version of AOSTH, the episodes were mostly episodic and almost never referenced aside from one or two times.

I CAN however see why people would like it, the 90s were the time where the whole "DARKER IS KEWL" craze was rising up(Hell its the reason why shows like Swat Cats existed), so its natural kids would love it, hell my oldest cousin and older brother used to watch it religously when it was first airing. SATAM isn't popular because it has a "story" no one cared about that, what they loved was seeing Sonic in a different atmospere than normal, what these new character were about, and how evil Robotnik was.

Now while I have no ill will towards the fanbase(No matter how obnoxius they are, though we aren't much better), I don't think its as good as people make it out to be I do love how they tried to expand on Sonic's world, my only problem is that despite being in the title Sonic feels more like a secondary protagonist to Sally, not to mention as the show went on every freedom fighter not named Sonic or Sally had severely decreased screentime(Bunnie, and Rotor), or just delegated to comic relief and nothing else(Antoine), or characters that are supposed to be important aren't(Tails), for a show that's praised for its characters, half of them really don't show up often.

ITs a good show, just not a good Sonic show; it had a nice concept, just poorly executed, I don't dislike it, I just don't think its the master piece people make it out to be.

[DavidTL]

The Saturday morning Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon is ok as a cartoon. But it is terrible as a Sonic the Hedgehog adaptation.

Let me preface everything with saying that I did enjoy the show as a kid, and used to defend it against other Sonic media, including the weekday series and the Archie comic. But over the years I have come to realize that Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog was far closer to the original spirit of the games, and the Saturday morning series was just...not Sonic the Hedgehog. Even though I still do enjoy it from a nostalgic standpoint.

The only reason the cartoon even came into existence was because of its era. If Sonic the Hedgehog had been made today, there is no way that any of its spin-off media would have strayed from its source material like that. When Sega of America was preparing the original Sonic the Hedgehog to be released on western shores, they were absolutely freaked out by the game. They had no faith in the product. They were certain that the game was going to bomb, that no one would get it, and they would still be in the same place they were with the Master System, if not worse. That was the only reason anything of the original games was changed - the Americanized box art, the concepts of Mobius and the R.O.C.C., and of course the name Dr. Robotnik and the Kintobor element. All of that was created by people who had nothing to do with the original development of the game, and the few sparse facts Sonic Team knew about it, they didn't like it. They were angry that Sega of America felt they had to make the changes, and they were oblivious to Kintobor. And at the end of the day, why did Sonic succeed? Was it because of the promotional comic, or because Sonic looked different on the box, or because the villain was named "Dr. Robotnik?" No. It was because of the game itself, and the advertisements that focused on him being speedy and cool. The game was so incredibly solid, I'm certain it would have done just as well without any changes. The game spoke for itself.

Sadly, they did make the changes, and so when Sega began to license Sonic the Hedgehog, that was the blueprint they were forced to use. For some reason, however, DiC never used the idea of Robotnik being a transformed villain. Perhaps they thought the entire concept was too silly (which is something when you look at Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog), even though the idea was present in the early series bible of the Saturday morning production. So was Nate Morgan, so take of that what you will. It should be common knowledge that Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog was the first cartoon DiC developed, but was turned down by ABC for not feeling appropriate for a Saturday morning audience. So instead of throwing out what they already had, they continued production, turned it into a syndicated series, and started formulating what would become the Saturday morning series. And let me make one thing very clear. Yes, the cartoon is now polarizing in the fan base. But when it came out, and in the years that followed leading up to the era of the Dreamcast and Sonic Adventure, the Saturday morning cartoon was the heart of the fanbase, especially on the Internet. There were no sites that were just about the games for a while. The biggest communities (i.e., Rat.org and alt.fan.sonic-hedgehog) were built around the cartoon, not the game canon. Yes, the latter of those embraced the games whole heartedly when Sonic Adventure was announced, but you could also say that was the first time Sega of America actually cared to inform what the real story was behind the games.

So who was the man that dictated the change from what the games were to what we got in the television show? There were a few involved. Len Jenson, the story editor of the series and writer of the series bible and its subsequent incarnations. Ben Hurst and Pat Allee, who went on to become co-story editors and were in charge of the entire second season. Though Ben and Pat were only involved in a couple episodes in season one, the story about Ben's introduction to Sonic the Hedgehog is just baffling. When he was brought in to be told what the series was to be about, they showed him footage of the first level in Sonic the Hedgehog 2, maybe the special stage, and then handed him the series bible. Ben Hurst had no interest in the game footage. He had no interest in playing the games, and he certainly never did prior, during, or after his tenure as series writer. What little he knew of the Sega of America story he felt was silly (seems to be a running theme here) and Len Jenson fought with both Sega and the network to prove what they were doing with the show was for the best. So yes, the reason the show looked nothing like the games or had characters that resembled their game counterparts is because they were completely disinterested in making a cartoon about Sonic the Hedgehog.

Yes, season three would have had the Sonic/"Tails" dynamic closer to what the games portrayed. Yes, that season would have had Knuckles, but only if Sega demanded it. The team behind the show was far more interested in creating their own thing and not a faithful adaptation of the source material. Even with what little they had, they could have gone about creating something far closer to the games. We don't get to see any of the fantastical worlds from the first two games, or even the Little Planet. Yes, we got something called the "Time Stones" on something called the "Floating Island," but neither really resemble their in-game counterparts, and feel more like Sega telling them to use the words but them not caring how they were utilized. And the entire backstory for the characters was something created in the second season. Originally, the series played off the idea that the coup had just recently happened, and Sonic and Sally had just met. Conveniently, the original episodes never mentioned any of this, because they were far more concerned with stand-alone stories. But the "Blast to the Past" two-parter basically explained everything as to why the show had nothing to do with Sonic the Hedgehog.

It bothers me to no end when I hear people go on and on about how the show would have come out like this no matter what because of what little source material they had going for them. And I refuse to believe that, because they had a lot their. Even if you were to simply go by what Sega of America had. The games already had a supporting cast ripe for television use - Flicky and the various other animals that Sonic had to free. Only Fleetway seemed to remember that those animals were able to talk just like Sonic the Hedgehog. Though the early drawings based around the Saturday morning series had one or two of these animals playing a role, by the time the show was aired, the Freedom Fighters were nothing more than the idea of animals extrapolated beyond what they were in the games. Princess Sally was based off Sally the Squirrel, which was a gender-changed Ricky, but did Sally really resemble the game character? No. Same with Rotor. Same with Bunnie. And Robotnik...instead of getting the unique jovial nature of Dr. Eggman, we get yet another repeat of "cold hearted villain" in the Jim Cummings-voiced Robotnik. They are polar opposites in terms of character. The only thing they really share is a name, and a cape.

The concepts of badniks were extremely perverted, and I think even as a kid I was bothered by what the Saturday morning show was doing with it. In the games, Sonic could jump on a robot, it would break, and his friend would happily hop away. Yet in the show, the characters were forced to undergo a process that changed their entire physiology, with no clear way to change them back. In the games, you knew you were saving people. Here, Sonic wasn't saving anything. He had to constantly deal with his Uncle going back and forth with his free will. And the whole pollution aspect was way over the top. Yes, Eggman wasn't the most conscientious about the environment, but he wasn't obsessed with turning the planet into a wasteland. What he really wanted was to rule the planet so that everyone would be in love with him, and give him the respect he felt he deserved. All of his pollution-spewing bases were really a means to an end, a quick and dirty way to build his robot army and his flying fortresses. the Saturday morning show took that way beyond the next level, and really, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why would someone want to actively destroy an entire planet? He's not even remaking it in his own image, he's just being a huge dick with no clear gain.

Another big problem I have with the show is that Dr. Robotnik has already won. He won the battle ten years ago. Sonic is not fighting to protect Mobius. He is fighting to reclaim a scarred and broken planet. He is fighting to reclaim a city that was completely destroyed. He is fighting for freedom, but in the bleakest way possible. It is a fight that doesn't resemble the world of the games, but instead one that is far closer to...say, the Star Wars movies. And while Star Wars can be great, Sonic the Hedgehog is not Star Wars (the Death Egg notwithstanding). Because even when Sonic and the rest of the Freedom Fighters win, things wouldn't go back to the way they were right away. It would take years of rebuilding (something that Ken Penders and Ian Flynn were able to circumvent in the comic books, but that's something else entirely), and that isn't what Sonic the Hedgehog is about. That is what the cartoon is about, yes. But that is not what Sonic is.

Yet the dark aspects of the show were never as dark as the fans made them out to be. Watching the show years later, the super-evil Dr. Robotnik doesn't seem as evil as he did to me a decade and a half ago. His super-evil mindset boarders on parody at times, and the dispositions of the Freedom Fighters (especially Sonic) don't mesh with the world they are living in. Yes, I know that even in the face of such adversity, people are not all doom and gloom. But when Sonic is face to face with Robotnik, how often does he show anything aside from poking fun at him? He treats him...well, like Sonic treats Robotnik from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, just without the disguises. And yet, even though it is not as dark as many would like you to believe, it is still out of place when looking at the rest of the Sonic the Hedgehog ideal.

Now, some of you may say that it's ok for something to deviate from the source material. There are plenty of "alternate takes" and "re-imaginings" of numerous properties that have come and gone over the years. And I'm fine with that sort of thing. In fact, I love that sort of thing. But this show was not made to be a different take on Sonic the Hedgehog. The show was made to be the definitive look at the characters, the other continuities at the time be damned. And as Sonic the Hedgehog was so young at the time, the last thing it needed was such deviation. The cartoon should have tried to be as close to the source as possible. That's how you build brand recognition. Having two separate TV shows that don't resemble each other that don't resemble the games which in turn have serious issues with the comic books...that's not how you build a fanbase. That's how you splinter a growing one. Each obsessed with Sonic, but each obsessed with a different Sonic. At least with...say, the Ninja Turtles (which has its own fair share of multiple continuities) the original, mature take of the characters were more an underground sort of thing. The animated series was able to do its own thing and coexist with the Mirage comics far better than what Sonic would do a few years later. Even the Archie comics for both proved the Turtles did it better. The Archie comic for the Ninja Turtles took the original pilot of the show and then built from it to make its own unique story. The Archie comic made a strange hybrid of the two shows on at the time and then had an unnatural shift to the more dramatic later on.

Oh, and one more thing - the concept of humans in Sonic the Hedgehog. I put the blame on this solely on the Saturday morning series. In the original games, the only human you see is Dr. Eggman. But nowhere does that imply he's the only human in existence. Really, aside from the various -icky animals, you don't see many other lifeforms out there. Sonic, "Tails," Knuckles, Amy. You can throw in the Chaotix and Ray and Fang, but that's not saying "Eggman is the only human." It just means the character designers wanted to make a new animal everytime (with the exception of Amy, but that's because they wanted that role to be played by a hedgehog). We see evidence of cities, but we never get to see who lives in them. That's because it didn't matter. But at no point did Sonic Team feel Eggman was alone. Yet in the Saturday morning show, we get the impression that Robotnik and Snively are. And fans have held on to this, even though Ben Hurst admitted that there were probably other humans living on the planet, they had just been in hiding after a nuclear holocaust in the future. Robotnik was meant to be part of a space expedition, and after he sabotaged it and went back to Earth, he found it had turned into Mobius. Which is what Ken Penders kinda did in the comic. And what Planet of the Apes did.

Though this has gone on for far too long (and will assuredly be skimmed over by everyone here) I must repeat that I do not hate the series. If it was ever resurrected and that third season came about, I would probably watch it out of a curious, nostalgic point of view. But the show is nothing what Sonic the Hedgehog is meant to be, and only works as an alternate "what-if" scenario now, 20 years later. It should not have been one of the building blocks for a new fandom. That was a mistake, no matter how strong the show was as an early 90's cartoon show.

[Flyboy Fox]

But the show is nothing what Sonic the Hedgehog is meant to be, and only works as an alternate "what-if" scenario now, 20 years later.

I think this is the crux of it. It IS an alternative 'what if' scenario, as are all of the media spin-offs from the games. Trying to get it to fit with the themes, attitudes, ambiances, characters, stories and worlds of the games is kind of... pointless and silly. It's not a cartoon version of the Sonic the Hedgehog videogames. It is an alternate universe very loosely based on some of the core ideas of the early franchise, developed into something entirely of itself and unique. Judging it as a cartoon in its own right with little more than name in common with the games makes sense. Judging it as an extension of the games is just daft and will never work.

[SBR2]

I want to start off by saying the idea, the characters and the enviroment wern't bad ideas for a Saterday morning cartoon. That being said I feel SatAM is okay it's not terrible but it's not as Godlike as people make it out to be.

I feel it's a fun Sonic cartoon but it is very VERY overrated.

[Crystal Kingfisher]

AoSTH was great because it made no sense. That's actually why is was such a good cartoon (and ironically also why it is such a "bad" cartoon).

I don't think SatAM is overrated because of what it accomplished. Somebody took their vision of what Sonic could be, and crafted a narrative that sucked an awful lot of people in.